Share good ideas and conversation.   Login, Join Us, or Take a Tour!
comment by kleinbl00
kleinbl00  ·  154 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Everything You Know About Obesity is Wrong

There was no aspect of this article that could be construed as fat acceptance. The whole of the article is about finding a method of treating it other than "stop being fat."




HeroicGomez  ·  152 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Painting the subject as criticism being akin to shaming inherently implies that fat acceptance is the suggested correct answer. It's disingenuous to pretend the underlying message is anything else.

kleinbl00  ·  152 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The criticism is shaming. That's the point of the article, that's the argument made for several thousand words, that's the experience much of society faces. More than that, the point of the article is that it's unhelpful, it's devoid of empathy and it's a society-wide problem that vast swaths of society refuse to acknowledge as a problem.

Much like you, right here, are doing.

I'm gonna share a little secret with you. I'm not fat. Not by any standard other than BMI. My belly has not protruded my chest or my waist in twenty five fucking years. But I have been counting calories for fifteen years now, have spent years dealing with bulimia and have a deeply troubled self-image because furries and fat people are the two groups we're still allowed to shame.

And it's fucking bullshit.

This entire fucking page is fucking bullshit because everyone who has never had a weight problem is loudly proclaiming they've never had a weight problem because they're virtuous. Thereby announcing to the rest of us that, as always, we are lesser human beings. And you don't see it that way because you've never been in the outgroup.

HeroicGomez  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Feeling shame is always a choice.

kleinbl00  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Certainly. Some choices are easy. Some choices are hard. When you spend your life surrounded by a society that defaults to you feeling shame in everything you do and everywhere you go, the choice to not feel shame is an impossibly hard choice to make.

Especially when people like OftenBen will champion you as the causitive force of all that is wrong in America.

You seem to depend heavily on flippancy. I hope for your sake that you can continue in your simple trajectory, unsullied by the complexities the rest of us face.

ButterflyEffect  ·  154 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    This has always been the great hope of the fat-acceptance movement. (“We’re here, we’re spheres, get used to it” was one of the slogans in the 1990s.)

I got kind of caught up on that and was thinking of some other articles when I wrote that sentance. I largely agree with this article, especially the part about treating it as a societ

    Which brings us to the most hard-wired problem of all: Our shitty attitudes toward fat people.

Which, a lot of the comments here, mine included, kind of support this, don't they?

Tangential - interested in if OftenBen agrees with this quote or not?

    Still, despite the Task Force’s explicit recommendation of “intensive, multicomponent behavioral counseling” for higher-weight patients, the vast majority of insurance companies and state health care programs define this term to mean just a session or two—exactly the superficial approach that years of research says won’t work. “Health plans refuse to treat this as anything other than a personal problem,” says Chris Gallagher, a policy consultant at the Obesity Action Coalition.
kleinbl00  ·  154 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Which, a lot of the comments here, mine included, kind of support this, don't they?

Yep. Thin people go "I have no problem being thin therefore everyone should have no problem being thin." Fat people disappear into the woodwork because never once, in the history of their lifetimes, has this discussion benefitted them in the slightest. Mostly it serves as a poignant reminder that everyone around them is utterly devoid of empathy.

tacocat  ·  154 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Fat acceptance is more about not making people feel like shit than normalizing fatness. Sucks you're the only person here who understands that. I don't see this public health concern with any other issue

OftenBen  ·  154 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Fat acceptance is more about not making people feel like shit than normalizing fatness.

In theory, theory and practice are the same.

In practice, theory and practice are different.

tacocat  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How have the two differed in your life?

OftenBen  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

In practice, wherever I have encountered 'Fat acceptance' I have encountered science denialism.

'Being overweight and sedentary doesn't cause diabetes.'

'Obesity doesn't contribute to heart attack and stroke.'

'You're wheezing because you have asthma, not because you are 400lbs and fat is literally blocking your windpipe.'

As some examples.

I'm all for not being a dick to people.

AND

Science denialism needs to be stamped out with a fucking vengeance. Actions have consequences and lying to (young people) about the consequences of their dietary choices helps exactly nobody.

tacocat  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Where are you encountering it?

OftenBen  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I've dealt with it a few times at work. Usually an obese set of parents who blame the obesity of a child on 'genetics' and not the fact that she is guzzling Fanta from a sippy cup. Thankfully I'm not the doc, but I have been in the room for these conversations.

Also everywhere on the internet.

_refugee_  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I’ve witnessed personally obese children raised by obese parents. It’s very clear to see these children become doomed to so much (not just high weight but bullying, poor self esteem, ignorance etc etc) when raised by two people who are obese, don’t plan on losing the weight, and don’t talk about it. I found it incredibly sad. At the same time, i found it disgusting and unconscionable behavior on the side of the parents.

kleinbl00  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You have to keep in mind that you're looking at two thinking, feeling adults that have capitulated in their struggle to conform to social norms. I know it's hip to pretend that fat people enjoy sweating when they go up a flight of stairs and having to sprinkle Gold Bond in their crevices to forestall dermal yeast infections but fundamentally we're talking about people who have given up on normalcy. They have, as a consequence, adapted to other coping strategies to live their lives to their own best abilities.

They teach their children these strategies not because their behavior is "disgusting and unconscionable" but because it is the culmination of their life experience. They concluded at some point that their children would live as they do, much to their heartbreak, and so they are propagating the wisdom of the tribe.

Mt sister's kids look like a Gap ad. They're impossibly thin. My own daughter will, if she's lucky, be built like Lucy Lawless. She's five but I already know that I will raise her to be her, not my sister's kids.

Don't make me tell the story of the bamboo skewer.

_refugee_  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

My assumption is basically that they live like that and raise their children like that because a) they don't know better (about nutrition/eating properly), b) they don't care/don't have the energy to tackle the problem. Some combination of the above.

I'm sure they had a lot of other things going on in their lives too. As someone who doesn't have kids, I feel like the timesuck of having multiple children and raising them "well" in all the other vectors a person might possibly want to raise their children well in - quite reasonably reduces the amount of time and energy a parent can direct towards self-improvement. Or changing what's always worked for them. Or teaching their children an entirely different lifestyle from what the parents know and live. It'd require a re-self-education and then application and re-teaching of that new knowledge to 1, 2, however many children. And even if you can change the lifestyle, the kids already absorbed what life was like before the change for however long that was.

I just felt really bad for the younger kid. who was obese at like 10.

Sure, sometimes people seem to raise perfect kids, but for the most part I think it's impossible. You can raise your kids as best as you can and that's about it. Even just a blind spot in the 'wrong' vector -- any possibly significant vector, which is like almost all of them -- can leave a kid vulnerable or disadvantaged. Guess what! That's being human for ya.

I don't know any adults who are perfect (in my life, anyway). Why expect parents to produce children who excel in every way and are in control of and smart about all their choices, when the parents aren't like that and also no one in society really expects that of them?

kleinbl00  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Your a/b is actually an a/b/c; don't know better/don't care/ don't have the energy might all be of a kind at first glance but it's a can't/won't/can't.

It's not a can't/can't/can't.

And that, right there, is the fundamental issue - externally, everyone here is arguing that fat people are fat because they can't or won't change (same diff) while internally, fat people are 100% all the time at "can't" or, more accurately, "have tried fucking everything and who the fuck do you think you are implying my can't is a won't".

And the answer is always some form of "someone calling you fat, fatty, what the fuck are you going to do about it."

Above, you're basically saying "these people can't or won't take care of their children." And while you might get agreement on "can't" (be it grudging, despairing or defiant), you will never ever ever convince someone they won't take care of their kids.

Especially when you're arguing that allowing them to look like their parents is child abuse.

kleinbl00  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  
This comment has been deleted.
tacocat  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How does the only actual instance you mention impact your life? Are fat children harming you? Is scientific ignorance of these parents directory impacting your life?

I'm deeply sympathetic to you for having to read the opinions of idiots on the internet in the second example

OftenBen  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    How does the only actual instance you mention impact your life?

It makes my work and the work of every other medical professional vastly more difficult. It causes direct physical harm for some. It causes the patient distress when we have to use giant needles to get venous access. As one example.

The frequent flyers in cardiac wards I described earlier fill up the limited time of specialists with bullshit. Those who add on blatant science denialism add hours of fighting and stress to already packed schedules.

    Are fat children harming you?

I find child abuse distasteful, sue me. I was a fat kid and I get to watch the same cycle repeat itself. I also get riled up when I see someone kick a dog. Does that make me a snowflake? For not being 'tolerant' of alternative parenting styles?

    Is scientific ignorance of these parents directory impacting your life?

There is a non-zero number of cases where obesity related illness has directly led to the death of one or more parents, leaving a child or children orphaned. That's reason enough to oppose science denialism. Stopping kids from growing up fat and sick is reason enough.

tacocat  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You already said fat acceptance is not being an asshole. That's on you buddy. This comment I'm responding to is a very detailed defense of a right to be an asshole

OftenBen  ·  151 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Whoops.

Forgot to mention that I slap the candy out of children's hands and cackle while twirling my mustache.

You asked how science-denying 'fat acceptance' affects me. I told you how.

OftenBen  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Bandaid measures won't work. Gallagher is correct when he says that insurance companies are going to redefine 'intensive, multicomponent behavioral counseling' into 2-3 'wellness' sessions or possibly somehow stack it on top of their normal doctors visits.

ButterflyEffect  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

One thing I often think about (interested in what kleinbl00 thinks about this, too) is the future market for OTs/PTs. When I think about general wellness, and insurance driven or, hell, just the way our society works with fitness, I think of a larger need for those types of jobs.

kleinbl00  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's super-good. OTs/PTs are:

- a low-impact degree. Training 'em up is easy and cheap.

- far cheaper to hire than doctors. Any insurance company worth their salt will integrate their care.

- essential for the elderly. What 'boomers want, 'boomers get.

Fundamentally? If it's part of eldercare it's gonna be bangin' business for the next 30 years.

OftenBen  ·  153 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It seems to be a reasonable next step.

I also think that the authority of the OT/PT is going to expand to eventually include some amount o of nutrition counseling/support, if they aren't already doing that on the sly.