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comment by FirebrandRoaring

We, as a modern society, have lost something along the way to a higher education: moral and civil upbringing. The universities — and schools, in general — no longer teach young people values: they teach data that is, hopefully, going to be applied at a future position in a company.

Maybe it's parents' job to build their children moral foundation upon which they will stand as responsible adults. Still, children spend half a day — as if at a job already — at an educational facility; more so if it's a boarding school. If the parents only get to see their kids coming tired after a day's work or on weekends, when the parents themselves need to rest, how much upbringing is actually going to commence?

Now, you've heard me before: I'm not a parent. I don't really know how these things go. They didn't in my family. I am, however, studying to be a teacher, and now the two aspects of mine, both regarding children, become concerned with what the future holds. How much am I supposed to give my students in education beyond that of pure scientific data? How much can I?

The fact that such a... "debate", barely even... takes place tells me that we've missed an opportunity with these kids. We've missed an opportunity to talk about it, to have them express themselves in an environment where an educated person could help them figure out what is what. I don't think it's an issue of "being radical left", as if it's a genetic condition. I think it's an issue of "I don't understand where I am in the world, what I stand for and what am I". It's an issue of a growing person building up their personality and trying things out to see what sticks.

Radicalization feels good because of the feeling of self-righteousness it brings. I think there ought to be something in the education system to help prevent going radical through educating about the world at large. I've had an idea for a course for high-school level about being human: what do relationships constitute, how does one find something they like, how to operate in an adult world etc. Things that are supposed to get taught by the real life that so many people unfortunately miss due to the way the modern societal infrastructure has grown. We're more isolated and lonely than ever, and I wonder how many young adults entering university this year even know how to do their taxes. There ought to be something we can do to accommodate for it.




mk  ·  7 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I largely agree with your sentiment, but advise you not to worry too much on it. School, parents, social circles, they all contribute, and it's extremely variable.

IMO it's best to avoid 'oughts', because as kleinbl00 points out, the size of this problem of super-sensitive kids has been magnified for the very reason why this thread is growing so large. People get worked up about it. But, it's really not that big of a deal. Some university administrators will take 'safe place' to the extreme, but that always seems to be the case in cultural shifts.

I come from a family of educators. Most of your problems in the classroom are going to trump these.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks. I get... wound up sometimes. I'm a big ham by nature.

Any tips you can share from your parents' experience that you saw for yourself as well?

kleinbl00  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

First of all, good on you for going into teaching. I have friends that teach and they find it greatly rewarding. My own mother taught for 20 years and found it to be a hell of deep torment. The friends should be teachers. My mother should not have been.

Second of all, be careful of "other people's children" as we've discussed before. The thing of it is, children are eager little sponges that suck up the moral framework of their parents - if I could say there's one perilous thing I've learned from having a kid, it's that she loves me unreservedly and at her tender age, I can literally do no wrong. She is voraciously incorporating our worldview into hers and applying it with enthusiasm to everything she sees.

So it's not that the kids aren't learning "moral and civil upbringing." It's that they're learning moral and civil upbringing that isn't up to your standards. You're right - this is a problem. We probably should do what we can to make sure children learn the basic values of their society but it needs to be done in such a way that parents aren't observing their parenting being negated every single day.

I had to take that course. It was called "critical issues in modern living" and it was proposed, created, ramrodded through the school board and championed by a friend's mother who - you guessed it - decided everyone else's kids were the problem. And everyone could smell it - "my kid isn't the problem, your kid is the problem!" so they packed it full of get out of jail free cards so that their kids wouldn't have to waste their time. Everyone college bound got to skip it if they took two years of a foreign language. Which, as we all know, is a great substitute for life experience, right? It certainly isn't a way to intensely focus on the kids in danger of dropping out who are taking the minimum courseload. You know, the ones that already have too much life experience.

I graduated a semester early (because I hated that school so much). I started German my junior year (because I was too busy taking a bunch of bullshit honors classes). And since I only had 3 semesters of German, I had to take "critical issues in modern living" with all my burnout wasteoid friends. It was taught by the PE teacher. Its curriculum was assembled by committee. I want you to imagine what eight bored stay-at-home moms decided other people's kids needed to be taught so that they wouldn't become the burnout losers other people's kids' parents most obviously were. That way you can understand how we ended up covering "how to survive a hotel fire" and "how not to catch AIDS" in one 45-minute class.

In order to meet the English requirements (how do you slam 4 years of English in 3 1/2 years?) I also had to take "Humanities", the experimental 2-hour long 1-credit of English course started by my least favorite English teacher. It was basically "we're studying literature, and we're also forcing you to look at art and religion." Great idea in theory. In practice, it was poetry plus slideshows of art. The one cool part was we got to visit a Sikh ashram, and we talked to a Mennonite for an hour, and a Rabbi came in, and then somebody's parents got super upset at all this religious talk and showed up to give two hours of the atheist perspective and then someone else's parents got even more super upset and started a petition to get the class cancelled because it was turning us all into godless heathens.

I took "Humanities" for half of the one year it was offered. I'm told once I bailed it wasn't any fun anyway because most of the course was me poking holes in their instruction ("I think maybe you have that upside down. It makes a lot more sense the other way." "No, I'm sure the artist wants it displayed this way." "How are you sure?" "I'm the artist." "Wait. You're subjecting us to your crappy postmodern scribblings?")

So we come full circle - you might be thinking of the children, but effectively, you're picking a fight with their parents. Nobody thinks their own kids lack ethics or values and they're right - their ethics and values just don't meet your standards. The only way to get there is to start early with the idea that the civil sphere is the source of morality, not the family, and that rarely goes well.

The kids are all right. They really are. They play safe-space trigger-warning bullshit games in college because it works. They generally stop once they get out because it doesn't. Using all the advantage and leverage to you isn't amoral, it's efficient and it's not a failing of the kids, it's a failing of an educational system deeply reliant on clients spending vast sums of money on something abstract that will not recuperate their expenses for a decade or more.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You make some fine points.

    it's a failing of an educational system deeply reliant on clients spending vast sums of money on something abstract that will not recuperate their expenses for a decade or more.

How responsible does it leave one within such a system? If you're encouraged to be pragmatic and leverage the hell out of everything, what incentive could there possibly be for a higher good or even ideals to act on?

Frankly, such a state of affairs is disheartening to me. Then again, I'm trying to take on a natural long-term development of a great mix of human needs and desires by trying to institute an artificial order over it in the way I most see fit — an image that is most definitely not shared by the majority of the population. Boo hoo for me being disappointed that the world doesn't bow to my will.

    The only way to get there is to start early with the idea that the civil sphere is the source of morality, not the family, and that rarely goes well.

I know I would feel concerned about the idea that my efforts to bring up a good person are not the focal point of my child's upbringing. While the goals between me and many other parents are not similar (I don't believe many aim at raising a person with an outstanding foundation of axiological perspectives, per se), I do recognize how a parent might feel dismayed at such a notion. Changing parents is, naturally, out of the equation: it's not an option. That being said, parenting classes might create a better perspective by providing important information to act on. (next thing I'm expecting is you telling me this is not how most people operate, either)

I'm a person of optimization and problem-solving. I aim at creating all-encompassing collections of data that, when provided in an efficient enough manner, could catalyze a more profound understanding of the subject — or simply collect all the available information that's currently disparate. Creating one for people similar to my own mindset is something I find a worthwhile endeavor, but I keep getting reminded that that is by far not the biggest part of the population. If I want to create something similar to a bigger group than simply those who share most of the personality traits with me, I suspect I would require an outside perspective from someone at whom the work is aimed. Clashes of personalities, then, seem unavoidable.

kleinbl00  ·  5 days ago  ·  link  ·  

So a point we keep not connecting on is the peculiar environment of the American university. I've repeatedly observed that the collegiate environment within the United States has grown increasingly cloistered and that the social mores within its walled garden reflect that of the world without to a lesser and lesser degree. A corollary to this would be the economic system that led to this walled garden: student loans are outsized compared to incomes, colleges and universities are increasingly dependent on tuition rather than grants and public funding to stay afloat, and the caliber of an undergraduate degree matters less than simply possessing one which means many universities are competing using luxury dorm rooms, health centers, concierge service and other perqs that are completely divorced from the academic environment.

So we've got a bunch of kids going deeply into debt that are choosing whether to spend their money at one deeply-pampering environment or another. they're being told that their feelings matter and that equality and equity are the most important thing. Effectively, they're being given knives and being told that they're expected to stab.

I just don't see this as a problem with the kids. I see this as a perfectly natural reaction by the kids. More than that, I think most kids understand that they occupy a special environment with weird rules and that they're playing by them. The outrage is real - the butthurt is real - but it doesn't take much for a person to acclimate to a new ruleset. This is why i raise the Google Manifesto - the dominant culture amongst high-achieving college graduates is not one of "i'm special because I'm black" it's one of "I'm special because I'm white and male and everyone else better shut the fuck up."

I agree that the environment we're creating at universities is counter-productive. I disagree that the symptoms displayed there are spreading into the greater world. I have no interest in belittling your concerns but I would caution you to focus on the sources and motivations of your information. Vast swaths of the world are in better shape than you've been led to believe.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  5 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We're not connecting on that point because we're talking about different things now. You're still on the specific subject while I went on to a more general problem.

The point of optimization is not to eliminate the bad. The point of optimization is to improve the object. "Functional" is merely a step on the ladder.

rd95  ·  7 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We, as a modern society, have lost something along the way to a higher education: moral and civil upbringing. The universities — and schools, in general — no longer teach young people values: they teach data that is, hopefully, going to be applied at a future position in a company.

Literally, no. I'm a drop out from some backwater community college not and not some liberal institution like Berkley and even there classes are steeped in discussions on how to navigate the world virtuously. I even had to take a class called, of all things, "Ethics." In my time in college, I was exposed to conversations from everything from how to properly collect, store, and present data to patient/doctor or client/lawyer confidentiality, the power of cultural expression, health care, poverty, on and on and on. If anything, people were embracing the exercise of trying to learn how to be more ethical and figuring out what that does and doesn't involve.

    I think it's an issue of "I don't understand where I am in the world, what I stand for and what am I". It's an issue of a growing person building up their personality and trying things out to see what sticks.

That's literally what adolescence and young adulthood is for. College kids get lucky because they get a few more years and a safe haven to experiment even further.

    I think there ought to be something in the education system to help prevent going radical through educating about the world at large.

You mean classes like art, literature, history, psychology, sociology, anthropology, and ethics? Any combination of which can be found at any non-technical school?

    Things that are supposed to get taught by the real life that so many people unfortunately miss due to the way the modern societal infrastructure has grown.

College is for building up fanciful ideas. Real life is for figuring out what actually sticks.

    We're more isolated and lonely than ever, and I wonder how many young adults entering university this year even know how to do their taxes.

I blame the internet.

    There ought to be something we can do to accommodate for it.

I say burn down the internet.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  7 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    You mean classes like art, literature, history, psychology, sociology, anthropology, and ethics? Any combination of which can be found at any non-technical school?

That's where our experiences differ. I know you're an American. I'm not. Here in post-Soviet Union territories, we have little access to humanities beyond what our profile suggests. It's all very closed-off and narrow in terms of what you get to hear. Our psychology class was devoted to mostly professional details — like, how people learn, rather than a more general perspective on how the human mind works on a day-to-day basis. Ethics? Forget it. We do have extracurricular classes on some interesting topics, granted — last year photography classes and even drama writing classes were available.

    College is for building up fanciful ideas. Real life is for figuring out what actually sticks.

You're right, of course. One can't live off fanciful ideas, however. And since you're already spending so much time in the academic setting (with "academic" being a stretch for school environment, but still), might as well get to know important things if you aren't taught by the people you grow up with.

    College kids get lucky because they get a few more years and a safe haven to experiment even further.

And they're still flailing wildly in the dark. I know I was, like a kid thrown into the pool, back when I was just starting the whole "higher education" ordeal. There's nothing wrong with experimenting and exploring things on your own; it's good for you. It takes personal experience to understand something well, but I think some guidance would come in very handy, especially at such a time of one's life.

Then again, I have no idea what it's like in the US, and I doubt you'd know what it's like here. Maybe you can get some counseling or ask a mentor to take you up, both of which are great opportunities.

kleinbl00  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Are trigger warnings and safe spaces a big thing where you are?

FirebrandRoaring  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Not in the same way.

Most people here have only recently come into any sort of wealth; you can likely guess at which point things turned. As such, while the older generation tends to be hardy and industrious due to the poor personal buying power, their children — people of my generation and younger — have received many more economic benefits without having to work for them.

It's a natural desire for parents to give children all they can to make them happy and needing nothing, but I think it has spoiled many young minds into thinking they're entitled to being treated a certain way. They demand good will and pout and scoff when they aren't getting it. A perceived slight could escalate into years of not talking to each other. Many carry around expensive smartphones and only the best clothing.

It's the same entitlement, but — thankfully — not in the same proportions. This part of the world is different from, say, the US because of how closed-off people are, emotionally. Many couple can't bring themselves to discuss sex after living together — and having it — for years. Is there much to say about the general population's willingness to discuss other emotional issues? Gays are still considered mostly an abomination. My outlook of "whatever floats your boat; it's neither a sin nor a horrible mistake of the nature" is on the extreme left, politically, here.

These similarities are part of the reason why things like trigger warnings and perceived "traumas" are appealing for me to learn about. Another is that I spend most of my Internet time on the English-speaking part, where those issues have a bigger importance. I hear about them often and, when uncareful about the things I pay attention to, even stumble upon examples of.

_refugee_  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

why be bothered by them if they aren’t?

rd95  ·  7 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think different school systems focus on different things and part of that stems from cultural values. If anything, that's a good thing, because it allows for diversity, specialization, etc., which is important to have in collaborative efforts. If you're looking at becoming a teacher and you're worried about humanities suffering in your university, you could look at sponsoring some kind of club. Classic literature, film studies, debate teams, what ever. It'll allow kids further opportunities to explore and at the same time they'll get the added benefit of being able to network and develop much needed social skills.

As for kids adjusting to the real world, they can do all they can to prepare for it, but they never really know what it's like until they're in it. Part of that probably has to do with micro-cultures and shit too. Those are all due to social, regional, and even job differences. For example, I've made a comment on here before that I don't think I'd do too well in The Pacific Northwest because cultural differences there are just enough that sometimes I don't understand the perspective people there are coming from. If someone worked in the back of a kitchen for ten years and then all of the sudden found them self working in a hospital, they'd have to acclimate themselves not only to a new job, but new expectations, a new dialog with its own jargon, new values, etc. There are people I interact with on here every day that I would never interact with in real life. Some of that's due to geographic location (hello to you, wherever you are in Russia by the way) but a lot of that is due to the social stratification that comes from education and income levels, jobs, etc. I'm in my niche, they're in theirs, and there's not a lot of movement back and forth without good cause to bring us together, say mutual enjoyment of cars and car culture for example.

College is good for building a template. The real world is good for a final model.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    If you're looking at becoming a teacher and you're worried about humanities suffering in your university, you could look at sponsoring some kind of club. Classic literature, film studies, debate teams, what ever. It'll allow kids further opportunities to explore and at the same time they'll get the added benefit of being able to network and develop much needed social skills.

That's a great idea. Thank you for the suggestion! I'm going to look into similar projects around the education infrastructure.

I still think that axiological education is lacking in many aspects of the modern education in most countries. You're right: the map is not the territory. Some aspects are only learned from the practical, personal experience. I don't think, however, that an opportunity for getting such personal experience could not be brought in.

Which is, really, me jumping ahead of myself, before explaining why I feel like real-life preparation is a necessary aspect to have within education. I don't have my thoughts well enough together to bring an answer to it right now, even though I feel that that sentiment to be true. Maybe I'll make a post later, to talk about this particular idea in more depth.

_refugee_  ·  7 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    We, as a modern society, have lost something along the way to a higher education: moral and civil upbringing.

LOL

    I am, however, studying to be a teacher,

I feel sorry for your future students

FirebrandRoaring  ·  7 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Oh, I see. You thought my commentary on the nature of higher education and its relationship with the real world wasn't good enough, but instead of engaging in a dialogue and correcting the wrong assumptions I may have made along the way, you left a "LOL" because... I guess that's how you roll. (that rhymed. my apologies)

"I don't owe you squat". Yeah, I know, I know. Of course you don't. You're a strong and independent person, and you don't need me to point out that you aren't doing the conversation any favors.

Thanks for stopping by, I guess, and... thanks for telling me I'm not going to be a good teacher. Not like I hear that very often in my head.

_refugee_  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sure, I'll bite.

Any teacher who teaches his or her students how to read, understand, and apply instructions has already taught their student how to do taxes. In addition, they've also managed to teach their students the keys to success that they need in order to pass all the required state and/or Federal testing which students are pummelled with in the U.S., and the article you posted is so US centric I can't imagine you're trying to teach anywhere else.

Here's the thing about taxes. They are not hard. Especially for people of low income, they basically involve filling in 3-5 numbers, which are already outlined and clearly labelled on your income documents, into a couple spaces on a single page (1040 EZ? even half page) form. It can be done in 30 minutes. What taxes are is intimidating. And they're mostly intimidating to people who haven't done them before, or haven't done them much. Say, by the way...you filed taxes yet? Cuz you act like they're mega scary, and you don't talk like you make enough money for that to be right.

When you say that you want to teach students how to do taxes and etc in a course like what you describe, I think many things. First and foremost are these:

1) So you are going to do this during required class time? Thus taking away all the time that you're going to need to get your students prepared for state/federal testing? (which ensures funding to your school and also reflects on you in a yearly score that school administration will be tracking and will impact your ability to keep your job)

2) If not, so you are going to offer this as an elective? And you expect students to willingly sign up for "boring life skills" when they could do art, music, drama, programming, forensics, or shop electives? (News flash: the kids who sign up for an elective life skills class are the students who are proactive enough and already care - scratch that, already worry - enough about these topics that they don't actually need such a class)

and 3) So you are going to, again, derail your students from state-wide and national metrics which they are required to meet (not to mention that their meeting of such helps them get into higher education) in order to further your moral agenda? Oh. Ok. Because it is more important that you teach kids what your personal opinion of what is Right, than you ensure that they are prepared for later grades (assuming you won't be teaching seniors in high school), later testing (besides state wide and federal standards, don't forget the SAT andor ACT and or whatever) and/or higher education or other opportunities?

OK then.

I don't support all the testing we do in the US or the standards we hold our students to, necessarily, but that's the system you'll be walking into as a teacher and as someone who's supposedly training to be one, you seem woefully unaware of that.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  6 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Say, by the way...you filed taxes yet? Cuz you act like they're mega scary, and you don't talk like you make enough money for that to be right.

I haven't filed my taxes yet. I wouldn't even know where to plug my curiosity probe into if it weren't for the billboard advertisements saying "PAYING TAXES IS A GOOD THING SO PAY ON TIME", with a website at the bottom. That's the problem.

I don't act about them as if I'm scared of filing them: I'm disturbed about yet another adult thing I wish I knew but somehow haven't even touched growing up, let alone learned.

How immature do I have to be to fit into the image of what's an average adult expected to get into once I'm "of age"? I'd like to take shit I have to do as a member of a country's population more seriously than that. I don't like bullshit obscurity over things that are advertised as some of the most fundamental aspects of a citizen's life, and I'd like an easy, self-evident access to the sources of information on such matters. Would you blame me for it?

    Any teacher who teaches his or her students how to read, understand, and apply instructions has already taught their student how to do taxes.

So, there are two areas on my most recent utility bill. One is "fact.", implying factual usage of water, the other is "1/12", which is for... monthly payments, I guess? Alright, so I pay the "fact." amount, because that's as much as I've used resources in monetary equivalent, correct? What's the "1/12" for, then? It's much bigger than my "fact." usage, too — three times as much, in fact. Do I have to pay it, too? Do I have to pay it along with the "fact."?

I could, of course, call their office and inquire about it. I could even go to the website and check out the FAQ section. Not that it has any information on the matter, much like the bill itself. So, my only option is to find a person to talk to about an issue that I'm not even supposed to have, as much as the bill's make-up makes it clear.

It isn't self-evident. I can't just look that information up and get precisely the information I want to, without involving other people.

Suppose something similar happens for your house payment. I'm a grown-ass man. I'd feel ashamed asking someone about taxes — which, I think, is also part of the problem. I'm supposed to know about them, and I don't, and I can't ask because of the social repercussions, nonexistent as they may actually be. Maybe it's not that big of a problem where you are, but here, social repercussions are a non-minor issue. People are afraid of asking questions on important matters and have no other easily-accessible way to learn about those.

You may think I'm exaggerating. What book did you have when going through Sex Ed? Have you ever seen a comprehensive guideline to renting an apartment? Do you know which doctor to go to for every health problem you might have? I still don't know many areas, and time comes soon for me when I can no longer naively skip yearly check-ups. Fucking embarrassing.

"Filing taxes" — which, in our conversation, somehow turned into euphemism for grown-ass people's activities — takes more effort than simply reading and writing, much like every other skill. Was math simply about repeating what's written on the blackboard? Of course it wasn't: it was a science of problem-solving more than it was about the numerical part of our understanding of the universe. You can't solve a problem if you don't understand what the problem is.

(regret biting yet?)

    (News flash: the kids who sign up for an elective life skills class are the students who are proactive enough and already care - scratch that, already worry - enough about these topics that they don't actually need such a class)

Ah, yes: the "already" razor.

Because people who understand the importance of healthy living already exercise, so there's no point to advertising physical activity to all of those lazy-ass overworked white-collars.

Because those who realize the negative effects of alcohol already don't drink much, so there's no reason to educate the alcoholics and their loved ones of what they can do to make the situation better.

Because people who understand that suicide is a point of no return, so why would you even start the suicide prevention line and tell people on the bridge that they matter?

Having a map is not the same as walking the territory. Your worry about the subject does not automatically translate to you knowing the subject. Knowledge and experience require data to operate from. In absence of either, your intent is just your intent, fading slowly without the oxygen.

    So you are going to, again, derail your students from state-wide and national metrics

Because of course that's how electives work. Without them, students are studying for 16 hours straight. But here I am, wrecking my way into the delicate workflow of people who have, somehow, acquired enough acumen to prioritize exams over living their lives, and giving them something they might not need but would likely not regret knowing later on... Oh, hello: that's the whole educational system beyond the first few years.

Come on. Antagonism, on its own, does not automatically qualify as worthy criticism. You aren't even pretending like you care about what I have to say. I'm not your enemy, but — feel free to act like it, 'cause you're an adult yourself and you can do whatever the hell you want.

Tell me. Is "LOL" your usual contribution to the conversation, or was I somehow particularly unworthy in your eyes? I'm a particularly agreeable person, you see; I don't like conflicts, even with people who I can't be sure exist, and your initial stance, if I can call it that, was hurtful.

Yeah, yeah, I know: "if your hackles are raised by an anonymous person on the Internet, you better GTFO". That's the kind of a person I am, though. Hubski is not a place I expect troll-like behavior from, and let's face it: that's what you acted as because your comment had no axiomatic content.

Would it be simpler for my emotional equilibrium to block you and not worry about your presence in my life? I wouldn't want you to waste your time with me, either, but my calm is more important to me because I already have enough stress in my life as it is. I'm here for a reasoned conversation that would lead to either of the participants to improve through learning — which may be why I'm going into education to begin with, by the way. Do you want to partake in the same, or do you want to keep telling me how useless you think I am?

PTR  ·  19 hours ago  ·  link  ·  

Yikes.

You're quite new, and apparently very easy to upset.

The way this comment reads, you're projecting strongly. Let me walk you through what I (and I assume _refugee_) read when seeing this.

You have a lot of concerns about how to function as an adult, and you want someone/something to blame for your ignorance because it's just too hard/inconvenient/punishing/embarrassing to figure out alone - it's got to be taught, and you want to teach it.

You mentioned previously that a lot of these topics weren't discussed in your family, so nix that source of knowledge. "Next up is the education system!" you think to yourself. "That's where I've been maligned, that's where I'll fix it!"

I'll quote you directly on these next couple examples to give you an idea of how you come across.

    I wouldn't even know where to plug my curiosity probe into

    yet another adult thing I wish I knew

    I'd like an easy, self-evident access to the sources of information

    I can't just look that information up [...] without involving other people.

    I'd feel ashamed asking someone about taxes

    social repercussions

    Fucking embarrassing

    people's activities [...] takes more effort than simply reading and writing

You see that? You sound whiny. You sound weird. What's your phobic deal about talking to a human being about these questions ? And if you fucking can't talk to a human being about this stuff, then why do you expect to be an authority to teach kids about it? What are you going to teach them anyway? That they have to know all of this stuff right the hell now or they're going to look like losers when they're grown up?

LOL.

What refugee was getting at is that it's pitiable that you think you'll ever be a resource to children on a topic about which you've got a disturbingly anti-approach. You'll be passing on latent messages of social embarrassment, perceived repercussions and victimhood, self-hating ignorance, and more to these students.

What you really need to do is realize - like fucking everyone else has realized - that you learn to do these things when you need to do them. All 20-somethings struggle with W-4s, W-2s, passport applications, bills, taxes, &c., &c. for the first time(s). But unless you're very socially inept - and the course of this conversation indicates "maybe" - you learn these things eventually by asking people who know, not by pulling up your scribbled notes from an elective you blew off for easy GPA-padding in high school.

Shit, I was vested for a retirement pension at 23. Did I know what that meant at the time? Fuck no. But you better believe I called Vanguard and Fidelity right away to find which plan I wanted between the two. I spoke to a real human whose job it is to educate me on these topics, and I asked them questions like a regular human would when they're ignorant about something.

See, the issue with your whole outlook on this is you don't realize there's an entire industry out there already called customer service that educates people about this stuff. Get over your speaking-to-a-human-being anxiety and talk to paid (often outsourced) semi-professionals like everyone else out here in the rat race. And the reason your response only required an "LOL" from refugee is because all you need to teach your students is that if they don't know something, there are people they can contact who will answer their questions.

Also, you deserve another LOL and probably a WTF for comparing high school personal finance to a suicide hotline, AA, and healthy living. Like...whaaat??

Your near-pathological anxiety around this topic is concerning. Your interest in teaching children while holding this anxiety is concerning. I don't think you'll do a good job, despite your hopes, because your instincts are based on fear and you will definitely pass that fear on, perpetuating the cycle of vicious ignorance-punishing you perceive. I hope you're more careful than that.

BUT... If this is how you typically react to criticism, then I have no doubt your future school's superintendent will listen to your weirdly aggrandizing arguments and realize, even if high school finance were a good idea, you are not the person to teach it.

But in the end, an under-funded public (or private) high school isn't going to invest in a class that might save it's graduates from slight embarrassment about something everyone else is just calling a toll-free 1-800 number about.

FirebrandRoaring  ·  6 hours ago  ·  link  ·  

    You're quite new, and apparently very easy to upset.

So you're going on to upset me further.

I've raised an issue that I think is important. You wanna discuss it? Cool. You wanna point out flaws in my reasoning? Be my guest. You wanna belittle my point of view and reduce my idea to something easily assailable so that you could feel superior to me? Be someone else's.

You wrote this tirade to, I presume, put me in my place and show me the error of my ways, but all I can see is someone telegraphing the desire to mock me and deride my ideas. I don't care to sweat about being wrong, but you've made personal what never has been, and you made it about how you see it. You made some good points there, can't but admit, but the rest of it is nothing but trying to make me seem like a kid, terrified of the world and wanting to change it to both get revenge on The System and feel bigger than I am because I feel so fucking small right now.

Look. You're welcome to comment on my shit and point out the flaws. You wanna do something else? Lemme save you some time, no bullshit: don't. I don't want to see your replies to anything I have to say, in public, in private or through any other medium if your goal is to reduce my point of view to some bullshit psychiatric assessment that's supposed to undermine my argument. If you continue to be disrespectful to me after that, I'll block you. Nothing personal: just mental hygiene.

If you wanna talk things through, feel free to PM me.

PTR  ·  1 hour ago  ·  link  ·  

You really can't handle criticism.

Hushed, muted, filtered. Block me if you want; I won't.