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comment by jadedog
jadedog  ·  2697 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: FiveSplaining: Firearms (Interest Measuring)

    I linked to this study (also from Harvard) elsewhere in this thread.

Yes, I saw your points on the other issue in this thread.

They didn't touch on this issue at that time.

I looked at the 46 page pdf and did a search on the word "defensive" to see where you got your argument from. The first search find was this:

    83. This Article will not discuss the defensive use of firearms beyond making the

    following observations: while there is a great deal of controversy about the subject,

    it is a misleading controversy in which anti‐gun advocatesʹ deep ethical or moral

    objections to civilian self‐defense are presented in the guise of empirical argument.

    The empirical evidence unquestionably establishes that gun ownership by prospective

    victims not only allows them to resist criminal attack, but also deters violent

    criminals from attacking them in the first place.

From the same note:

    The legitimate question is not whether victim gun possession allows for selfdefense

    and deters criminal violence, but how extensive and important these benefits

    are.

That's the question posed here in this piece of the thread. The paper you linked did not directly answer the question except to pose the same question in the notes.

Back to your quote.

    Recent analysis reveals “a great deal of self‐defensive use of firearms” in the United States, “in fact, more defensive gun uses [by victims] than crimes committed with firearms."

I'm interested in where this statistic came from, (it's in the footnote 87) which states that it's a collection of studies. Note 89 states:

    These studies are highly controversial. See Kates, supra note 29, at 70–71, for discussion

    of critics and criticisms.

Your quote is slightly out of context and not consistent with the notes and the broader theme of the paper.

As to your point about comparing other countries' relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates, the author of the article you linked notes in summary:

    Moreover, if the deterrent effect of gun ownership accounts for

    low violence rates in high gun ownership nations other than the

    United States, one wonders why that deterrent effect would be

    amplified there. Even with the drop in United States murder rates

    that Lott and Mustard attribute to the massive increase in gun

    carry licensing, the United States murder rate is still eight times

    higher than Norway’s—even though the U.S. has an almost 300%

    higher rate of gun ownership. That is consistent with the points

    made above. Murder rates are determined by socio‐economic and

    cultural factors. In the United States, those factors include that the

    number of civilian‐owned guns nearly equals the population—

    triple the ownership rate in even the highest European gunownership

    nations—and that vast numbers of guns are kept for

    personal defense. That is not a factor in other nations with comparatively

    high firearm ownership. High gun ownership may

    well be a factor in the recent drastic decline in American homicide.

    But even so, American homicide is driven by socio‐economic

    and cultural factors that keep it far higher than the comparable

    rate of homicide in most European nations.

    In sum, though many nations with widespread gun ownership

    have much lower murder rates than nations that severely restrict

    gun ownership, it would be simplistic to assume that at all times

    and in all places widespread gun ownership depresses violence by

    deterring many criminals into nonconfrontation crime. There is

    evidence that it does so in the United States, where defensive gun

    ownership is a substantial socio‐cultural phenomenon. But the

    more plausible explanation for many nations having widespread

    gun ownership with low violence is that these nations never had

    high murder and violence rates and so never had occasion to enact

    severe anti‐gun laws.

my bolding added

The author of the article you linked is clear to point out that the relationship of one country's gun policies and the link to its homicide rate may not translate to another country rates due to socio-economic factors and its cultural history. That's a point you neglected to mention.

The author notes that it may be impossible to find the relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates because of the complexity of socio-economic factors and the cultural reasons for gun ownership.

    Of course, all other things may not be equal. Obviously,

    many factors other than guns may promote or reduce the

    number of murders in any given place or time or among particular

    groups. And it may be impossible even to identify

    these factors, much less to take account of them all. Thus any

    conclusions drawn from the kinds of evidence presented earlier

    in this paper must necessarily be tentative.

The author then goes on to discuss the burden of proof and where it lies. The author asserts that the burden lies with those who want gun control. If there's no proof on either side, what's the reason that the burden of proof should lie on the side of the people who want gun control?





johnnyFive  ·  2697 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The author notes that it may be impossible to find the relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates because of the complexity of socio-economic factors and the cultural reasons for gun ownership.

Hasn't stopped you from doing so, it seems.

    what's the reason that the burden of proof should lie on the side of the people who want gun control?

What's the reason it should be on the other side? You've just kind of declared that it should be and left it at that.

jadedog  ·  2696 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The author notes that it may be impossible to find the relationship between gun ownership and homicide rates because of the complexity of socio-economic factors and the cultural reasons for gun ownership.

    Hasn't stopped you from doing so, it seems.

That's a curious response. I don't have a stance on this issue. I was using your source to point out that your own source doesn't say what you're purporting it to say in the unequivocal way you're stating it.

Fivesplaining (or ELI5) is when someone takes a really complicated issue and objectively explains it without the jargon so the average person can understand it.

I've now read your OP multiple times to try to understand what you're supposedly fivesplaining.

Are you just fivesplaining how a gun works? If so, it's confusing since you're mentioning politics. The functioning of a gun doesn't include politics.

Are you fivesplaining the complex debate surrounding the proliferation of guns and the debate surrounding gun control? If that's the case, so far you've presented a very biased one-sided view with cherry-picked "facts" from your own sources that contradicts your own source in places, and you're using rhetorical tactics to obfuscate the issues.

If someone is offering to fivesplain the very complex gun control debate, I'd be interested to learn more in a fair and balanced presentation. Based on your responses in this thread, you're not offering that.

    what's the reason that the burden of proof should lie on the side of the people who want gun control?

    What's the reason it should be on the other side? You've just kind of declared that it should be and left it at that.

I don't have a stance on this issue.

But just based on looking at the resource you cited, an argument could be made that if there are ethical and moral concerns about gun ownership from a certain segment of the population, and it can't be proven that gun ownership is beneficial to society, then the burden of proof should fall on those who want less gun regulation.