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comment by user-inactivated
user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Why Is There So Much Bullshit in Modern Writing?

    By the time your essay-writing ability has gotten you into college, you’ve internalized a few lessons. One is that a longer paper will probably get a better grade. You read academic writing, which is full of passive voice and jargon, and learn to imitate it to sound smart.

Too simple, but he's on to something with the negative feedback loop of all those unedited Huffington Post blogs, etc.

The actual reason is that we no longer read (real) books as a society. I learned to write by reading. It's easy, basically a shortcut. Learning to write by taking a writing class is self-defeating and torturous. It's like learning to speak by thinking of definitions and sounds word-by-word instead of going off internal deep knowledge.





galen  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    all those unedited Huffington Post blogs

And the bane of my existence, the fucking Odyssey.

user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Going into this semester I was optimistic about how this year would go. I had encouraged myself to get way more involved because ultimately I think that was my biggest struggle last year. The first two semesters of college I was not going to get involved in much because I wanted to remain focused on my studies which meant no clubs, sports, or jobs. It was not until the last portion of my second semester that I started seeing potential in the school, and do you know why?

No, Ryann, I don't.

    I joined theatre group, took a seat as a senator of my class, and started reaching out to make new friends.

Oh.

ButterflyEffect  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    The actual reason is that we no longer read (real) books as a society.

What is the difference between a (real) book and a (not real) book? Are you talking novels and well written nonfiction vs pop sci or something else (if something else, please explain a bit, I'm interested).

user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You know the difference.

But anyway, I said that since I can't say "we don't read anymore" hard stop. That's not true, at least not obviously. (Google it and you'll get lots of conflicting info, but the trend isn't nearly as sharp as you would expect if you spend all your time reading scare articles about millennials and ebooks.)

But a lot of the same articles you'll see -- here's one -- make the point that what we're reading matters way more than how much. Words on hubski, words on facebook, even words at The Atlantic, they don't help as much as Dostoevsky, Hemingway or Woolf. The argument further goes that young adult fiction really cratered a generation's reading ability, because it's so damn easy. It seems logical (as a parent, teacher, librarian or even as a teen who "likes to read") to think of young adult as the next step on the ladder in the hierarchy from children's literature to classics and nonfiction, but it's more like a broken rung.

Also, age is crucial. If fewer and fewer 15 year olds read -- well, I was proficient in the English language at 15, but I wasn't a great writer. I got better. If I had been stunted by a lack of desire to read, I would still be able to bang out corporate emails and bad forum posts, but I would not be able to sit down and write a short story or poem.

ButterflyEffect  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Words on hubski, words on facebook, even words at The Atlantic, they don't help as much as Dostoevsky, Hemingway or Woolf. The argument further goes that young adult fiction really cratered a generation's reading ability, because it's so damn easy. It seems logical (as a parent, teacher, librarian or even as a teen who "likes to read") to think of young adult as the next step on the ladder in the hierarchy from children's literature to classics and nonfiction, but it's more like a broken rung.

Yeah but I wanted to have a discussion, dammit. What you read is definitely important, but what, exactly is the impact of reading some sort of young adult fiction versus, say, Mark Twain at a young age? Or to pick an elementary school example, The Giver? As a kid I read plenty of Harry Potter, Eragon (hey I didn't know any better), etc., which I think could be classified as young adult fiction (maybe not?) as did many people in my age bracket. Is there more of a negative stimulus from reading that type of work compared to a positive stimulus of reading children's literature or nonfiction? Paging lil.

_refugee_  ·  2741 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think when as a young reader you are encouraged to pursue works outside of your contemporary world, written valuing different styles, language schools, and values, you take advantage of the elasticity your brain possesses in youth and gain significantly greater comfort with diverse modes and styles of

Communication, Specifically writing, than you do by staying solely within the works written during your time for readers of your age level at that time.

Mark Twain is a challenge because he's removed from the present. Harry Potter and Eragon are engaging and good because they're writing and students reading them are still reading, but the language challenges aren't the same.

jadedog  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    But a lot of the same articles you'll see -- here's one -- make the point that what we're reading matters way more than how much. Words on hubski, words on facebook, even words at The Atlantic, they don't help as much as Dostoevsky, Hemingway or Woolf.

I was almost buying it until I got to this

    Could a country that had widely read “Huckleberry Finn” have taken Donald J. Trump seriously for a second? Twain’s readers will remember “the king” and “the duke.” They know what a bullying con artist sounds like.

What does a snide remark about US politics have to do with reading?

But also this

    Lifetime readers know that reading literature can be transformative, but they can’t prove it. If they tried, they would have to buck the metric prejudice, the American notion that assertions unsupported with statistics are virtually meaningless. What they know about literature and its effects is literally and spiritually immeasurable. They would have to buck common marketplace wisdom, too: in an economy demanding “skill sets”—defined narrowly as technical and business skills—that deep-reading stuff won’t get you anywhere.

I've read some of the authors you and he list. I wasn't transformed.

The author is speaking for a group of people (lifetime readers) and making a claim about them he can't possibly know that he conveniently can't back up with evidence. If people aren't convinced, I'm not sure they should be.

user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    What does a snide remark about US politics have to do with reading?

Nothing. That's dumb. Certain publications cannot write an article in 2016 without mentioning Donald Trump. It's getting frustrating.

    I've read some of the authors you and he list. I wasn't transformed.

Who have you read that transformed you? Sometimes people are different.

jadedog  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Who have you read that transformed you? Sometimes people are different.

For me personally, I'm more transformed by non-fiction over fiction.

Since this discussion is about fiction writing, I'd compare something like The Brothers Karamazov to a book like The Life of Pi. Both are filled with imagery, metaphors and religious allusions. The Life of Pi was slightly more accessible because I didn't also have to deal with the different cultural references that related to that specific time period. Both had the ability to make people think differently about religion and man's place in the scheme of things.

I think that can be done without those books as well. People who are curious will find their ways to those issues. Those who aren't will probably take those books too literally.

I've been in several books clubs with people discussing The Life of Pi. The people who saw the metaphors were those people who were already questioning and curious. For the people who thought the book was about a tiger in a boat, it wouldn't matter what they read.

user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    For the people who thought the book was about a tiger in a boat, it wouldn't matter what they read.

Maybe so. What about a 10 year old who isn't aware that books can be taken at more than face value because he's never read a good one? If he is funneled into young adult dystopia land, he may never realize that. Maybe those are the adults (I assume) you've seen across the table at the book club.

Not everyone is going to read Great Expectations and walk away changed. But everyone should be given the chance.

user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I stopped reading the books I was assigned for English class after Ulysses because I decided the game of constructing a nonsense essay that checked off all the boxes I needed to get an A was more fun than plowing through anything like Ulysses ever again.

user-inactivated  ·  2742 days ago  ·  link  ·  

You didn't ask "Why Is There So Much Bullshit in Modern Literature?"

I can cover that too, if you want.