I've been there, done that. Rat infested apartments the whole deal. You want a quick and easy way to know if someone does not understand poverty? The phrase "buy in bulk" comes out of their mouth.
I got out of poverty by sheer luck; I got a job that included room and board and isolated me from shopping, which enforced saving discipline. I am interested in seeing if anyone else has been through this and has anything to add to the article.
I had a rant. It rambled on and was awful and negative. I deleted it. I'll just say this. The hunger sucked. The shame sucked. The fear sucked. Don't laugh at the guy who comes knocking on your door three days before rent is due trying to sell you his X-Box, because that could easily be you, giving up pieces of your life just to have a roof over your head. Find a local food pantry. Give to them. Not just now, but six months down the road too, when the word "charity" isn't on the tip of everyone's tongues.I am interested in seeing if anyone else has been through this and has anything to add to the article.
I tried to explain to someone how I got used to hearing the mice and rats crawl inside the walls. Their reply was along the lines of "why not just move?" If you have not been poor, and by that I mean not sure if you are going to eat today, or even planning food around bills, there is no way to explain in a way that will convey empathy of that situation.
The idea of myself being in the same position as the guy you described scares me. I've never been anywhere near poor and, in fact, had quite a bit of luxury in my life - mostly stuff I never actually needed. Having stuff change for me to such a degree is terrifying. Thank you for sharing this. That being said... A part of me craves this. Craves the desperation, the overwhelming feeling of personal responsibility for my bad doing, the little choice... the narrowness of choice. Maybe it's because it's a simpler life, and I know I want that. Maybe it's because I desire things in my life to be important, and for that I imagine living on the edge. Maybe there's something else I'm not thinking of. I hear many people crave post-apocalyptic situations because it shows what really matters in life. I think it's also because we're left with no choice - it makes living and doing things so much simpler. But I ramble. Thanks again for sharing this perspective. I made me wonder about things I wouldn't ordinarily touch upon.
No, you don't. you have a romantic version of poverty that exists in fiction. being poor sucks at every level.That being said... A part of me craves this. Craves the desperation, the overwhelming feeling of personal responsibility for my bad doing, the little choice... the narrowness of choice.
Which begs a question (I'm not to act passive-aggressively with it): is being poor different from being very frugal and living with very little? I mean, I understand it probably is, but - how, exactly, is it different? Maybe what I really want is the simple life and not a poor life, and I'd like to figure it out.being poor sucks at every level.
This is a grand question, thank you for asking it and I will give you the best answer I can. I was just in a car accident. Because I live frugally, I save to the point that I have a year's income sitting in liquid accounts. I could pay cash for a new car, but due to no debt on frivolous items such as luxury goods etc, I was offered a car loan that ends up being less than the rate of inflation, and less than the interest rate I get on my CD's. I do not live paycheck to paycheck and fortunately have a job with banked sick time that I was able to use to cover doctor's visits and time off for car shopping, lawyer visits etc. The whole experience has been annoying,frustrating and inconvenient, yes, but I am not going to go hungry or lose my house over the accident and new car. I got a new car because used vehicles come with their own issues and are not that much less expensive in the grand scheme of things. I was able to spend more on a machine that comes with a 10 year warranty and should last me a good 12-14 years as I take care of my stuff. Frugal, to me, simply means living slightly below your means to generate savings so that you are prepared for the bad things that come your way. Now, we talk about when I was poor. (The following is a summary of people I knew and what they went through) If this accident happened back then, I'd miss two days of work. As it took every cent I made to keep a roof over my head and pay the bills, this means that I lose out on roughly 1/10 of my monthly income, assuming 20 work days a month. I am now on a work restriction, which I am currently working around, however, If I was working a physical job that needed me healthy, I'd not get the hours I was pulling in before the accident, or fewer hours, or worse case, I'd get fired for not being able to work. Yes, it is legal to do that in most states. Now, I am out a car, have a broken arm and severely less income for the month, AND NO SAVINGS. It takes a month to get money from the car being totaled, and as I was driving a barely legal rust bucket at the time, there is no way I would get enough money from the settlement to do more than pay a down payment, assuming I could afford the car payments in the first place. Or you can go to the auto auctions, get a beater car and hope that it does not break down or need a major repair because money is very tight now and your job is on the line so every purchase you make is a knife in the gut. Sure, buying a better car that needs fewer repairs and will last longer is the best choice, but I don't have that money. Let's be generous and say that the place you are living in is with people who have your back, or can get you side jobs, or help you fix the new car etc. Maybe they know you are good for a loan, so they cover your rent for the month; this only adds to the stress as your buddies are all in the same boat you are: they live paycheck to paycheck have no savings and need every cent incoming to just keep the lights on and food on the table. So the arm is in a cast for 6-8 weeks. That is two months where I cannot work as much as before. The check for the car is gone due to the new car and giving money to the housemates, and you have to swallow your pride and apply for unemployment. That takes weeks to work out, and (at least when I had to deal with them) the people in the office hate you. Hopefully it is better but back in the day I honestly felt as if they were unpleasant just to kick you in the ass to get a job so you no longer had to deal with them. And hopefully you pull in enough cash to keep the roommates happy enough that they don't kick you out in favor of someone who can pay the bills. Or, with no other options, you work hurt, which makes it take longer to heal, increases medical bills that the insurance promises to pay and hope that the lawyer you found in the phone book is not ripping you off. If one more bad thing happens, all your options collapse. This is what being poor in the US does to you. Being Frugal is a luxury. Being frugal means that you have the options to not buy stuff, to save, to build up a bit of money. Frugal means you have the money to buy in bulk, for example, and you have the space and resources to absorb a big purchase like that. Frugality is a way that can be used to enforce budgeting as well. Being poor, on the other had, means in many cases that you are one or two unplanned expenses away from a cascading set of failures that ends up in a bad place. If you get a utility cut, you have to pay a reconnect fee on top of what you owe, foe example. Overdraft a check on accident and that can run you $50-$100 when it is all said and done, which may be the difference between eating and not eating that week. One funny (sad) story I have is that a church was offering families a free Costco Membership, at the time about $40 a year. The families that jumped on that as a great way to get cheap food ran into the problem that yes, food was cheaper, but they lacked the money to buy the big packages to start the ball rolling. The church eventually got wise, pooled all the money together and started running a sort of community shopping run to try to kick start savings and budgeting. The thing everyone seems to forget is that if you give poor people money, they spend it on stuff that they were putting off due to lack of funds (replacing clothes, new shoes, TV, fix the car etc.) Oh, and I watched a shit ton of TV when I was poor; TV is cheap and watching TV you don't go out and spend money in bars etc. Living a simple life is a goal I can get behind. I do it myself. But I have a ton of options and can do pretty much whatever I want. I don't have the fear and stress of worrying about keeping a roof over my head and food on the table. I got lucky as shit and got out of the cycle, was able to save up over $100K and connect with friends who saw me doing crazy physical labor instead of mental work that was more my style and talents. Most of the people who are poor, at least from my interactions are poor for the simple fact that they lost the birth lottery and ended up in single parent families in impoverished areas with bad schools and no hope. It used to be that the military was a way out, not so much any more. Or College, but we are sending too many kids to college IMO and that is not a guarantee; it can even make the problem worse if they end up with tons of debt. Better men and women than us have looked at this problem, and honestly the only way to break the cycle is strong families, decent school, access to health care in childhood, strong role models, and an economy that can absorb the influx of new labor into the work force. None of these issues are easy and the solutions are not going to fit on a bumper sticker. I am doing my part to chip away at the problem, hopefully I will have a bit of an impact.is being poor different from being very frugal and living with very little? I mean, I understand it probably is, but - how, exactly, is it different? Maybe what I really want is the simple life and not a poor life, and I'd like to figure it out.
Thank you for the break-down. I now see the difference clearly. Indeed, I was hoping for something far more romantic than that. That being said, I'm still curious: can you live without money (or, at least, with the absolute minimum)? Have you ever heard of people doing that? I've heard of one vagabond posting of his penniless living online, but I never dug any deeper than that. I know that one can get odd jobs as they travel (since they have no shelter) - and, even though unreliable, this is somewhat feasible (and I understand that the pay is shit in this case - it's just better than nothing). I have no idea about where one would sleep/rest and other such activities, though.
In a modern country? No. Land needs money for taxes, and no one person can make or produce everything they need. Even the Amish have jobs and sell goods. People working resource extraction jobs (lumber, fishing, oil) who live cheap and bank everything they make, which is what I did, can come out of the experience with enough money to live for a year or three before the money runs out. This is very hard to do, but it can be done with character and discipline. I lived on a boat, with the expectation that I was working 20 hour days when the product was being harvested. Logging camps for some people I knew in Alaska provided shelter, which amounted to glorified heated tents and not much else. I blame the movies and TV selling a fairey tale. The reality is so bad most people honestly can't understand nor handle the truth. At least you are asking questions and trying to understand.That being said, I'm still curious: can you live without money
Have you ever heard of people doing that?
I have no idea about where one would sleep/rest and other such activities, though.
Indeed, I was hoping for something far more romantic than that.
Being frugal (when you're not really poor) is only playing at being poor, it's nothing at all like the real thing. Real poverty is a mountain of stress because your life is literally on the line, every single day. One day of bad luck and you can go from 'poor' to 'on the street' - and from there, the next step down is 'dead'. It's a lack of control that you really can't imagine if you've never been poor.
I think I get the question, and the answer is no. Being poor is very expensive, and everything you do has added costs that you can absorb or not deal with when you are middle class or above. The fees for check cashing in this thread show an example of that. Living on the street, and you get sick, you are screwed. Since money and food are scare your body is under stress, and being exposed to the elements, you will get sick. One hospital bill with no insurance and you are in permanent debt. One arrest and trip to jail, and now you have a criminal record which makes it harder to do everything from getting loads, renting a place to live, employment,even volunteering; some volunteer organizations won't take convicts. Then you have no transportation, miss a single court date and now you get fees, fines and warrants leading to a spiral you don't get out of. Maybe 4-5 people out of every 1000 make it out; it happens so rarely that the successes get on TV, book deals and movies of the week. Can it happen? sure. Does it? The odds are very much against you.
More often than not you see "from rags to riches", like with the "radio voice guy" (have you heard of him?). Thank you for explaining that. I've never been poor or have ever seen poor lifestyle (except in fiction, scarcely), so I have no idea just how bad it is.
Ted Williams - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams_(voice-over_artist) And even with the extraordinary attention his situation received, he still had recurring battles with alcohol. Without his internet fame he would be just another guy dying on the street.
Next to impossible, in most parts of the world. People who do get out nearly always have the kindness of some stranger to thank for it, and there are never enough of those strangers. This is why it's not worth the savings for a nation to dismantle its social safety net. In America there's no limit to how far you can fall any more.
To mirror francopoli, you don't crave poverty. Poverty is a nightmare. You crave simplicity. You said so yourself. The thing is though, it's probably not really even simplicity you crave, but modesty and humbleness. So live modestly and be humble. It takes effort to get started, but once you get the ball rolling it's easy to keep going.
It may very well be so. To admit, though: I don't understand what that might exactly mean, to live modestly and humbly. Could you elaborate, so as to set my vision right?it's probably not really even simplicity you crave, but modesty and humbleness
Ugh. I have an appointment with a woman on Sunday who very well could have written this article. She can NOT seem to catch a break. Car dies? Missed wages. Manager thinks she looked at her sideways? Lost hours. Kid vomits blood from anxiety attack after the younger kid died from cancer? Hospital bills. Even when given a small leg up - like if rent gets covered by church or a charity. Even if the local food pantry doesn't turn her down - it's the same story next month. SO HARD to break the cycle.Because our lives seem so unstable, poor people are often seen as being basically incompetent at managing their lives. That is, it’s assumed that we’re not unstable because we’re poor, we’re poor because we’re unstable. So let’s just talk about how impossible it is to keep your life from spiraling out of control when you have no financial cushion whatsoever.
There's this thing that never gets mentioned in these discussions. It's stupid, because it's the biggest thing. I've been "poor." I've had no real money, I've had a great deal of variability in my income, I've lived on beans and rice for months. But I've never had the "oh shit" instability that the truly poor experience. Neither have most of my friends. Because we went to college. And I don't mean that we got degrees and things were all rosy. I mean that before we'd so much as unpacked our bags in the dorm room for the first time, we had seven different companies offering us credit cards. And most of us took at least a few. So most of us - no matter what - had five to ten thousand dollars of revolving credit the minute we walked out of our parents' houses. And fuckin' A, I used it like a lifeline. And I paid minimum balances, and the balance went up, and the balance went down, and when you had money you paid it off and when you didn't you took advances and I shit you not, I had a thousands-of-dollars-deep credit card balance from the age of 19 until the age of 35. But there was.never.a.time that I didn't know where my next meal was coming from. It was coming from MBNA or Discover or Chase. Period. Full stop. Because I went to college. Didn't even have to graduate. Didn't even have to make it through the quarter. If you made it to a 4-year institution, you were the right kind of credit risk for the credit card companies. They wanted their hooks in you. Someone banked on you enough to get you there, someone would pay your goddamn bill if it got too steep. And if they didn't? Okay, they'd wreck your credit rating and get 20 cents on the dollar but those are the breaks. The dividing line hits early. If you can get to opening day at college, you get revolving credit. And if you don't, you get the payday loan center. Yay college.
I've been "poor" by govt standards in the past. I was in my early 20's. But I always knew that I could return to my parents home if I was destitute. I have never known real desperation. I'm grateful for that and I never pretend otherwise.
Tried to find the article, but one of the solutions to poverty long term is multi-generational families living together. grandparents help raise the kids so mom and dad can work and the kids get the benefits of a stable family. Parents are a massive hedge against the bad stuff going down.
That's the time-tested conservative solution (there is a reason that traditional conservative -- church-based -- charity focused on the two groups who cannot often benefit from that support system: orphans and widows). The liberal solution is...
The non-snarked answer is how do we reform the social safety net to keep families together? Several states are finding that it is cheaper and easier to put homeless people in vacant housing and offer job and drug treatment than it is to put them in shelters. Can we do the same for families? I'm an atheist, but I am all for church based and community centered antipoverty programs. Running the programs as close to the community and neighborhoods as possible is what I would like to see happen.
Empirically, families used to stay together and now they don't. The 'why' is very sticky and gets into things like obscure divorce law changes, the rise of feminism, etc. I'm not sure that it has anything to do with the social safety net; rather, I should say the causality is backward. We need the social safety net because the nuclear family is on the decline. Reforming welfare may not do anything about that. (In fact, it could easily do the opposite -- cf welfare babies.) From my point of view it seems an insoluble problem, I confess.
Of all the bad things Reagan did, pushing no fault divorce as the Governor of California is in the top 10. I honestly don't think this is a feminism thing either. We've allowed family courts to become a mess that runs people through a meat grinder and has lost sight of the goal: the best interests of the child. There is a solution, there has to be. The problem is so huge where do you start? Which political advocacy gang do you go to war with first? How do you magically make an economy that allows single income two parent households? How do you force divorcing parents to drop their nonsense, go to counseling and fight through the bad times so they have the resources to raise kids? How do you fix the problem in such a way that the parents in the above scenario don't hate the kids for trapping them in a marriage? One of the roots of the problem, IMO, is increasing benefits for people who have more kids while on benefits. This guarantees a poverty death spiral. Yet who is going to be the hard-assed jerk who cuts people off? President Clinton ran through a welfare reform that cut people off after 5 years, something I support still. Maybe we need to force beneficiaries into public works projects, but work them so that working people don't get pushed out by cheap welfare labor? I really, really wish I had a solid answer and not a bunch of anecdotes.From my point of view it seems an insoluble problem, I confess.
(In fact, it could easily do the opposite -- cf welfare babies.)
So let's talk about washing clothes. Hubski is smart, so many this will help those who don't understand. Back in the day I made roughly 200 a week after tax. Rent was 350/month which included utilities, but I shared a house with 5 other people to pull that off. We had to go to a laundromat to do clothese to the tune of roughly 8.50 a weekend. Keep the math simple and say 440 a year. that is two weeks pay, just to do laundry. So, we had a house, why not get a washer and dryer? They started at 300 each, so they would pay for themselves very quickly, not mentioning the time sink of hanging out in a laundromat on the weekend. How in the hell am I to save enough to buy a 600 appliance (washer and drier) when I'm barely holding on? Now lets say you are young and healthy and have the time and energy to work on the weekend. an 8 hour shift at most places back then nets you $50. So cool an extra 400/month, right? But that means committing to working 7 days a week for a month. And you need to do this at least two months to buy the appliances. then you get used to the extra income and start fixing the car, or buy a new bed etc. now you burn out because nobody can work 7 days a week very long, we need time off for mental health and sanity reasons. the temp job is now a vital part of survival, now what do you do? I left the church and eventually all religion when I was told flat out that I did not deserve food stamps or food pantry aide when there are hungry children in more need than I. Single adults with no kids are pretty much boned in the US when it comes to poverty relief, and I get funneling these programs so that kids don't suffer. They didn't choose poor parents after all. The US spends billions on anti poverty, but IMO they waste so damn much of it, and use most of the rest enforcing a poverty cycle.I read this, and at first I thought they were talking about washing dishes, and I thought "hell, I don't have a dishwasher, you find time, damnit" and then I realized that the person writing this article probably never has had a dishwasher, and that she was talking about washing clothes by hand, and yeah, nobody has time for that.
Also, I'll admit that I'm wholly ignorant here, but how do people go hungry when we have food stamp programs? I'm not skeptical so much as I'm confused. I had thought that that program worked....
There are actually many food programs which all have their own requirements for qualification and what they do and do not cover. There are also a lot of private organizations that help out the hungry as well, such as food pantries and churches, who all have their own criteria that must be met but tend to be a little more flexible and open to discretion. Churches and food pantries are great for situations where on paper someone doesn't qualify for government aid but in fact they do need some very real help.Also, I'll admit that I'm wholly ignorant here, but how do people go hungry when we have food stamp programs? I'm not skeptical so much as I'm confused. I had thought that that program worked...
I grew up a different version of poor. And it doesn't compare to what you guys are talking about, but I do have one thing in common with you because of it. We grew up with my mom having only graduated high school. This wasn't that big of a deal back then, and you could still pull down a decent job without a college degree. She worked in insurance data entry eventually, but that was after a lot of working other shittier jobs like doing clerical for a PI, and even when she was working insurance, Christmas was sparse. Luckily we were so little we didn't know any better, but looking back at pictures of my mom on Christmas morning, she was freaking out and disappointed in herself and it showed. Luckily we had my grandma to depend on, because my single mom with two kids and no one else would have been screwed. That would have been poor like Pixie Bread because there wasn't enough money for rent, food, utilities, out of just my mom's check for sure. So I didn't know this, because at the time I was 2-12 and you don't know these things. But what we have in common, is that we have had to depend on someone else. If my mom and grandma fought, the fight was over because there was always the nuclear option of, "You can do that, but not under my roof." And there wasn't another roof available. This was especially a problem when my mom wanted to start dating again and my grandma told her to get her degree before she even thought about men. And that's what being poor is to me. Lack of options. Being rich is being able to tell people that you have a valid opinion because you don't need them to back it. Being poor is hoping that things turn out in your favor when there hasn't been a good track record so far. So I don't know what it's like to not be able to pay rent because I am lucky and I told myself that I would work to make my luck as small a factor in that balance as I could, but I do know what part of being poor is, that your opinion doesn't count, that you need other people's help, that you have to compromise yourself for others. Even that little bit was enough to make me want to never be poor.
Blergh. This topic is very timely, and very salient exactly right now. Guess where I am: That's right. The Walmart money center with a dozen people in front of me and even more behind me. You know what else poor people don't have? Access to easy money systems. It's crazy. I've been in this line 20 minutes already and expect at least 10 more. Time is a luxury I have. Most working poor don't. I don't mind taking this time for a friend in a pinch. But holy crap - if your world depends on this solution for cashing a check or paying a bill??? Access.
You forgot to mention that they charge an arm and a leg to cash your check for you. I don't know what the going rates are these days, but I remember it wasn't unheard of to be charged $20 to cash a $250 check. Banks with free checking are a double edge sword. On the one hand, suddenly you can start cashing/depositing your checks without being charged crazy fees. On the other hand, if you fall below your minimum required balance, you start haemorrhaging your hard saved money due to bank fees.
According to the signage, it's $3 to cash a check. It cost me $9 to send $150 cash. I have the luxury of saying "ok good. It's only $9" To a poor person, $9 might keep the power company from shutting off the lights for a day or two. It will get you to work and back a couple times on the bus. It would feed a large family a humble meal. $3 is almost a round trip bus ticket.
Shoot. That's not too bad at all. That's actually pretty reasonable. I'm looking online now for average rates and the going rate seems to be anywhere from 1-3% of the check's face value. That makes me wonder if I'm remembering things being worse than they are or if there were laws introduced to crack down on predatory fees. Edit: Looks like it's a bit of both worlds.Check-cashing centers typically charge a fee based on a percentage of the check being presented and these fees often range from 1 percent to 20 percent. In the state of Ohio, laws prevent check-cashing services from charging a check-cashing fee that amounts to more than 3 percent of the check amount. State law does not prevent centers from charging additional fees to convert proceeds from a cashed check into another form of payment such as a money order.
This makes me curious -- which time when Walmart bottomed out prices did you hate them for it? Was it the inexpensive clothing? The affordable household goods? Or perhaps that time Walmart rocked the industry by introducing $4 prescription drugs? (Where allowed by law. In some states, it is illegal to sell medicine too cheaply.)
The people previously providing clothing and household goods in many towns were likely mom & pop type stores. Walmart tends to put those kind of shops out of business. The only folks profiting off of high check cashing fees are banks and check cashing/payday loan stores that are as bad or worse than Walmart.
That is possible, or the goods may have been provided by mail order, or more distant retail outlets, or people may have made their own goods or gotten by without them. When the alternate retailers were less efficient than Walmart, and unable to provide as good a value as Walmart, customers naturally chose to bring them less business. Bad news for mom, pop, and Sears, good news for all the price-sensitive shoppers that are the subject of this conversation.The people previously providing clothing and household goods in many towns were likely mom & pop type stores.
Wait, let me understand this correctly : you have to PAY MONEY for DEPOSITING A CHECK ? That's seriously fucked up. I never thought about it, in France you just go to your bank, you fill a piece of paper indicating the amount, the bank account and some additional information in addition to the check and you put it in a mailbox type of thing and the next day it's cashed in and available.
No. Most banks have free checking, but you have to maintain what's known as a "Minimum Balance." Basically you have to have anywhere from $200-$500 in your checking account at all times. If you have under that amount, the bank starts charging you fees for not having enough money in your account. I'm talking fees like $25-$50 every few days, if not daily. Your account can quickly and easily go into the negatives if you're not careful. What happens then is the bank closes your account, you owe them money, and you have a black mark on your record making it that much more difficult to open a checking account at another bank down the road. A lot of people who live on the financial edge can't afford that minimal balance or the risk that comes with having a checking account. So they don't have one. Instead, they go to places like Wal-Mart, their local grocery store, or ironically, their bank to just have their check cashed right out. They have to pay a processing fee to do so. The fee usually starts out at about $5 dollars or so but quickly goes up. The larger your check is, the more you have to pay to cash it. Edit: As I posted in another comment, the fee can vary.
Most credit unions I have been in do not have a minimum for basic checking. You yuo want some perks then you may end up losing money due to minimum balances, but they don't apply this to poor members because you specifically need a large amount of cash in the accounts to make the switch. The illegality of credit unions (non profit money institutions or approximately banks) is equivalent to a regressive tax in the amount that the big banka in the US earn from these petty fees. Why would you not want a non profit bank? That case is so clear that it is only the entrenched interests of the super rich that have prevented it. Note: they are not illegal, but you can't just make a general credit Union for everyone and compete with banks. Why? Well you would certainly kick the banks to the curb, which is exactly what their powerful leaders don't want.
https://www.acecashexpress.com/ Don't get me started on these fucking vultures.