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comment by OftenBen
OftenBen  ·  3047 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Why Punish Drug Users at All?




b_b  ·  3047 days ago  ·  link  ·  

By that logic drinking should also be a criminal act.

OftenBen  ·  3047 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm not as opposed to that idea as you may think.

blackbootz  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What are some other public health concerns you have that you think justify the continuing criminalization of drugs as they are now prohibited?

OftenBen  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I was referring to alcohol specifically. Lots of lives would be saved if we banned alcohol. If it were discovered today there is no way in hell it would be legal.

guybrush  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There are lots of things that could save lives if banned. Driving for example. However, we have to way up the benefits that those things provide us.

To pick your example. Drinking alcohol forms a key aspect of many of my social activities, such as going to the pub with friends, which I may do once or twice a week. Generally our towns and cities are set up so I don't have to drive home afterwards (tube & train ride) and drink driving is very frowned upon here. I also don't drink excessively and never get violent towards others etc. It wouldn't be the same to go to the pub to watch the football and just have the same soft drinks week in week out (although often someone isn't drinking due to work etc. which is perfectly fine).

It's a really important social activity in our culture and helps people maintain their networks (including older people in local pubs in some rural communities). I don't believe the net impact of banning alcohol would be beneficial and I'm sure it would create many of the problems associated with illegal drugs.

OftenBen  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Let's get one thing clear. In the United States, there is no such thing as evidence based, harm-reduction focused, internally consistent drug policy. Doesn't exist. As it stands now, chemicals are banned, legal, or prescription only based almost entirely off of whose wallet is affected/ was affected in the past. Substances are not evaluated by the same criteria because of the problem you described, the social context.

blackbootz  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    In the United States, there is no such thing as evidence based, harm-reduction focused, internally consistent drug policy. Doesn't exist.

This is the truth.

But I don't think I've seen an answer to the question of, couldn't the logic that justifies banning alcohol in order to save lives also be used to ban other substances and activities? Or do you just have a special attitude towards alcohol?

OftenBen  ·  3042 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sorry this took so long to reply to, its an important point.

Personally, I don't think any recreational chemical should be illegal, and that the industries that exist to cater to recreational chemical demand should be taxed and regulated to ensure product safety, to the extent that alcohol companies can't sell drinks laced with antifreeze and so on.

I think that if you live in an area that is densely populated enough that drunk drivers are a hazard, that is a risk that you accept in your life. Just like you accept the risk of getting hit by a meteor by not living underground.

To some extent, we seem to be able to treat chemical dependency and addiction. We can't do that in prisons, and more importantly we can't do that by breaking up families. With my point about making alcohol illegal, I was kind of joking about how if our drug policy was actually as ideologically driven and rigorous as it claims to be, alcohol would probably be target number one.

user-inactivated  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I don't believe the net impact of banning alcohol would be beneficial and I'm sure it would create many of the problems associated with illegal drugs.

In the US we already did this in the 1920s, and it led to Al Capone and the rise of the mafia.

People want to alter their brain states. It's becoming increasingly common as more and more people are asked to work excessive amounts of hours for reduced pay.

briandmyers  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

This is why we should outlaw impaired driving, of any sort. The effects of an x% blood-alcohol level (for whatever x), on real people's actual impairment, seems to vary quite a bit. If we had a good way of testing impairment, it wouldn't matter what the cause of that impairment was. A driver impaired by fatigue or stress is just as dangerous as one impaired by any chemical. The problem is that it's a difficult thing to test, I guess. Something like the old field-sobriety tests could probably work, though.

OftenBen  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Field sobriety tests are designed to be failed though. They are an evidence builder, by and large.

briandmyers  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The fact that it is so difficult to design reliable FITs (field impairment tests), to me, says a lot about the questionability of sobriety testing in general.

OftenBen  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We don't know what consciousness is, how can we hope to define what an 'altered state of consciousness' is?

briandmyers  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If we can't measure impairment, how can we justify x% as an "impaired" alcohol level ?

OftenBen  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I guess impairment is significantly easier to measure than degree of altered consciousness.

Maybe, idk. Give me a beer.

briandmyers  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The problem with associating impairment with levels of some chemical is that there's always going to be a new chemical on the scene - and people can have wildly differing reactions to a lot of chemicals.

Bring on the self-driving cars!

OftenBen  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Bring on the self-driving cars!

I'll drink to that.

someguyfromcanada  ·  3046 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I have always thought a "breathalyzer" should be some mechanical device that measures the same skills one needs to capably drive a car. If you can not adequately handle that then you can not drive no matter what the "impairment"; whether it be booze, pot, old age or simply some other cognitive or motor skill issue.

And although I would like to see it happen faster, even google, benz, etc. admit that fully autonomous cars are a long way away.

guybrush  ·  3047 days ago  ·  link  ·  

In the UK it is already illegal to take drugs and drive, much like it is illegal to drink and drive. But it's a good point, I think we'd need some new laws to protect other people much like those brought in to protect children from passive smoking etc.