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comment by _refugee_
_refugee_  ·  3194 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Crying Children and Lazy Parents

so relevant

It's hard to speak about children without having them. It's harder to feel as if you have the ability or right to do so, while still not having them. I hit the latter trap a lot.





user-inactivated  ·  3193 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    Get out as early as you can, // And don't have any kids yourself.

What a horrible thing to say. Just because we were fucked by our parents, we mustn't put any effort towards building a future where that won't happen? Equally, mustn't we put effort to be unlike our parents? We will have quirks no matter what we do, but that's true for the whole humanity.

The poem's way is very passive, saying that we shouldn't propagate what attributes to a vicious circle when we have full power to break out of it instead. Staying there or staying away are both cowardice, and it's disrespectful to one's inner strength to promote them in any way. "Oh, give up on that".

Oh yeah? Let me channel George Carlin for a minute: "Well, fuck you! Maybe you shouldn't have a chance to tell others that they're weak because you screwed yours up! Maybe you should just be left to rot and decompose, because you bring nothing to the humanity's progress and development!", and you know, he might be right. As much as the ruthless rhetoric makes me uncomfortable, I agree with the message: by not doing better, we agree to the shitty lives we get to angrily boast about to the same filthy people who did the same to their lives. I won't accept that kind of thinking just because things don't seem to move miles an hour: humanity isn't weak; it needs guidance.

_refugee_  ·  3193 days ago  ·  link  ·  

OK. So I'm not claiming to be an authority on the Larkin poem I linked, but I have never interpreted it to be very serious. More of a tongue-in-cheek sort of commentary on the inevitability of our flaws; that our parents give them to us, yes, and we can be petulant and blame them for that if we want but when our time comes we will do the very same and in fact cannot not screw up our kids. (Who has been perfectly parented? I say that person, maybe, might have a shot at not doing significant damage. But with only flawed models for reference, that is to say 'human beings', I don't believe it's very reasonable to insist or believe that anyone can parent better, or at least, parent without inflicting their own set of personality notches and shivers upon their kids.)

Now, you definitely got a very different feeling out of this poem than I have. In typical English major fashion I don't believe I can say you're necessarily wrong; so long as you can prove your stance with quotes, paraphrases, references blah blah blah APA style citation JUST KIDDING, then there's gotta be grounds for validity there.

I think we can strive to do better than our parents and I think we can also strive to make wise decisions about whether to even parent or not. I do believe that sometimes the better choice is not to parent. I was about to start off on what I think other people think about when they're trying to conceive, but I'll stop myself there because I don't plan on having kids and it's not fair to assume that my reproduction-free POV would really reflect accurately (or even without bias) what a set of wanna-be 'rents would think, feel, and do. I will however and instead say that I currently do not want to have children, historically have not wanted to have children, and while I recognize that this feeling may change in the future, my decision is as much a result of navel-gazing, personality-pondering, my own experiences as a child of flawed parents, my opinions as to whether my personality would mix well with tykes, and so on. And yes I may be tooting my own horn, but I think it is a better decision for me not to have children and I think that a full, considered, honest examination of whether you are truly well fit, personality-wise and so on, to be a parent, is the way to approach things.

I think that it is more admirable to know oneself and one's limitations, to know when one cannot handle a task or adventure and gracefully decline the challenge, than to forge blindly ahead because. I feel much more secure with my decision than I think I would if I had not sat down and thought, "Let's face the realities of parenthood. And let's put them up against me. How's the fight? Who wins? Why is this a death match? Oh, no..."

I esteem considered decisions. I honor that no one can know you as well as you know you, or I know me, and I must respect the decisions another makes for himself with that knowledge as much as I demand my own be accepted.

Rants, rants.

user-inactivated  ·  3193 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm not saying anything against not having children, and it's admirable that you've put effort into introspection and came up with what's best for you. I am saying against other people thinking that they have the right to tell others whether they are a fit for parenting. You can suggest, you can point out, you can educate, you can do all of the above - but don't ever decide for others if they're mature enough to make their own decisions. I guess the poem got my guard up exactly for that reason.

    But with only flawed models for reference, that is to say 'human beings', I don't believe it's very reasonable to insist or believe that anyone can parent better

I beg to differ - not that we're all aren't flawed, but that you can do a better job than your parents, given enough education and effort on the matter. Being a parent is never easy - unless, of course, you decide to neglect your child, in which case I doubt you can be rightly called a parent in a context other than biological - but then, you're building a future for your child, so I believe the effort is worth. It's not to say that my way of things - flaws included - will not affect my child: they will, even if I try to be a completely different person, in which I'll certainly fail. It's to say that, with enough information, you can negate the negative aspects of your personality or divert your negative energy towards important things (for example, being stern with your child to teach him or her discipline - it requires both love and a certain level of rudeness, of denial of whims which both - and only both - will later lead to a more disciplined person, which, in my view, is better overall).