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comment by ButterflyEffect
ButterflyEffect  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Pubski: July 15, 2015  ·  

    It's not their fault, it's just that since they came in with a bunch of redditors, their experience here is.... a bunch of redditors.

I disagree, it is their fault. You're coming to a new site, and maybe you've read about it but you don't know anything about how it works or the people who use it already. I wouldn't go into a new restaurant or new pub or new social place and force my ways on the people that are already there, even if I already have some sort of base knowledge about that place. There is a courtesy to taking the time to get to know a place and its culture and becoming comfortable with that and tailoring your interactions so you're not that person that people just want to serve quickly so they leave. It's the same kind of thing, I would imagine, as to when a small local place with character and something good going suddenly gets a lot more popular and is overloaded with people who are there for the image or for other values that the place wasn't built on. To me it is the fault of the people coming here if they disturb things and immediately start treating the site like something it's not. Especially when it is so, so, so easy to observe for a week or however long and not take the selfish route, for lack of a better term.

kleinbl00  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Literally every single slap fight I've had with new Reddit refugees has been "old makes way to the new" "but it's the old that attracted you here" "but I'm new and therefore better and therefore STFU."

You remember how much blood and treasure was squandered over muting? As it turned out mk rolled out the feature I wanted, exactly as I wanted it. Go to "settings". "Filter users less than 2 days old." OMFG it improves your experience. Gives them a chance to get their sea legs and it gives me a respite from watching them orient themselves to a culture not built on pandering and flame wars.

_refugee_  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think part of the issue is volume. Say there are 20 active members who essentially guide the disucssion, mood, community feel, etc, of the general site. If you get 50 new members, even if each of them only sticks his or her foot in his mouth once, all of a sudden the whole pool is looking really, really shitty.

I will be honest that the waves of new users in the past few weeks has driven me more away from Hubski than otherwise. I am sad about it, and it is not because I do not like people in general or as a whole. But I'm not here to chill with new users, I'm not here to watch people fall for bait, I'm not here to hold hands and share fluffy bunnies, I'm not here to pretend or put on a friendly mask.

What's most unfortunate to me is that I feel driven out, instead of that I should and can defend my territory.

I guess the other option's the pass of thermopolae? This, by the way, is why I'm so gung ho about a 30-day free trial and then, pony up your cash. If that would make a potential user decide not to join, I'm very, very fine with that.

arguewithatree  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

you can't see but i'm banging my fork on my fruity drink glass in agreement. it's very loud.

i've been on hubski for ~800 days. I don't think I first started commenting or getting involved until at least 100 of those 800 days (partially because I forgot about hubski) because i wanted to figure out the ropes before i jumped in. i don't understand why that's so difficult.

rinx tagging you here because i'm muted on dear OP's post. you're attempting to tango with the devil and i am going to advise you now that it's not worth it

rinx  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I'm new here, but I've been told you try to talk out differences, so I figured I'd give it a shot. I keep trying to talk to him rationally, he just ignores me so far.

Is there a way to filter him for just that tag? He keeps posting things with interesting conversations elsewhere, then trolling the feminism and gender tags. I'm a little disappointed he has so many followers. I thought hubski was different but right now 3/5 top posts in #feminism are mens rights clickbait.

_refugee_  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

If you had a friend in real life who was blatantly sexist or blatantly racist how long would you be willing to tolerate the racism or sexism because you sometimes have really interesting discussions?

Would it be after the first time they said something really terrible in public? Or the first time you were embarrassed to be out with them because of your conversation or their attitude. Would it be when you realized that everyone else who knows your friend knows that they are a terrible sexist/racist, and when they see you two pal-ing it up, they think that either you must be ignorant, or also sexist/racist?

Do you think it's possible this user deliberately posts interesting content outside of the racist/sexist discussions, in order to a) hide his wolf nature in sheep's clothing, b) convince others he's not a troll, c) be that much more successful in his trolling?

    I'm a little disappointed he has so many followers. I thought hubski was different but right now 3/5 top posts in #feminism are mens rights clickbait.

LOL do not blame Hubski for this. You can blame waves of users who may or may not have arrived recently, but Hubski has over and again been a place to defend minorities (race, color, gender, etc). I have had many great vehement discussions about it. Some even with this-user-who-must-not-be-named-because-we-care-so-much. Ben will tell you that when I want to I come down like a hammer.

But if there are 50 new people on a site having discussions I've already had with people I've already figured out are trash, I am not going to spend the energy. That's not fun, it's not social media, it would be a god-damned job.

My theory is that that user is just the trollingest troll playing a long game. Obvious trolls are obvious. A troll who appears otherwise sane and reasonable and even funny or nice to talk to - now that's a troll that will work, and can stick around. If you are repeatedly engaging with this person outside of his areas of trollery, you are making him appear more legitimate to other users.

Trash should be taken out to the curb; ignorant people who like to pick fights and act innocent should be muted, filtered, and hushed. You will find that they bother you less.

rinx  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Heh you're kinda assuming some things about me here. I do have sexist friends. Not many, but a couple. I keep them around because ignoring them means they go on being sexist. We have occasional debates about it, but more importantly they see the unfair things I struggle with. Even if we never see eye to eye, we learn from each other. If it gets to the point where knowing them is bad for me I'll happily cut them off, no problem. But for now, my goal is sharing and expanding each others worldview. To me, hubski seemed kinda about that too.

I'm not blaming hubski, although I do believe grendel is proof that the site probably has some kinks to work out. It's hard to invite my friends to the site.

"Hey check out hubski! It's different from reddit! Women are welcome!" "Um.. rinx... why is the 3rd post down about whipping feminists"

"Oh trolls are a very small minority, you can block them!"

"yeah... that's what people said about reddit"

For me personally he doesn't bother me. Like I said, I know people like him in person. Once you've met them it's impossible not to feel sorry for them. I would like to see him have less representation in #feminism, so that's why I suggested us consolidating on a tag to filter.

user-inactivated  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think the difference is though, that while you and your friends disagree sometimes, you can still have civil conversations and healthy dialogues. My best friend and I for example, we agree on almost nothing, but that doesn't get in the way of our friendship because we have an honest respect for each other's opinions. With trolls, it's a different story. They often choose belligerence for the sake of belligerence and when you discover that they're not there to be reasonable, sooner or later you have to decide how far you really want to go to work with them.

rinx  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Sure, my point is more, I'll always start with an attempt at real conversation. If it's obvious I'm talking to a troll, or it's something that is unhealthy for me, I end it. Otherwise I try to keep the pipeline open even if I disagree with people. Grendel's an obvious troll, but probably also a really unhappy person. I don't regret at least attempting a reasonable conversation, although I won't keep doing it.

user-inactivated  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    My theory is that that user is just the trollingest troll playing a long game. Obvious trolls are obvious. A troll who appears otherwise sane and reasonable and even funny or nice to talk to - now that's a troll that will work, and can stick around. If you are repeatedly engaging with this person outside of his areas of trollery, you are making him appear more legitimate to other users.

    Trash should be taken out to the curb; ignorant people who like to pick fights and act innocent should be muted, filtered, and hushed. You will find that they bother you less.

I know myself personally, that I've rubbed a few people on here the wrong way, even though that was never my intention. When you put so and so's behavior exactly like this, I start to wonder if that's how my actions come across as well. I think, especially for those of us who have come from Reddit or other sites with an ingrained culture of confrontation and belligerence, really need to stop and be careful of not only what we say, but how we say it.

At the same time, I know this is a frustrating period for a lot of Hubski veterans, and though it's not my place to say it, a bit of patience on their part is definitely appreciated. Unless someone's a complete dick. Though, how many of us really wake up in the morning and say "Today, I intend to be a dick."?

arguewithatree  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

There's no rationalizing with this one. You can go through my past comments and see what happens when you try and have a real honest to gosh conversation. I think if you filter the user, you won't see their posts in a tag. The real tag you wanna use is #grrlski

rinx  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Thanks! I'll add it.

tla  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Please don't let him find that...

arguewithatree  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I will personally shout him down. If hubski is my bar, grrlski is my barstool. And you don't get to shit on my barstool without me making a big stink.

tla  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Why would it work any better there, though?

He'd just Cat Piss Man that place right up like he has #feminism and #race.

rinx  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

How come people don't just tag his posts with #antifeminism or #mensrights or something? Then we can filter off that. That's what they really are anyway, they aren't about feminism, they are about antifeminism.

tla  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Suggestions as to why it's not done more are:

* most of the people who notice how badly the place is being shitted up because of him don't get the chance to tag him; they nope out when they see him dominating activity stats and getting shares

* those who filter in the hope that enough filters will eventually get him globally filtered don't see his posts

* troll watchers want to watch the fights

* the majority here are from privileged demographics and still think it is genuine discourse and use the free speech card despite holy fuck look at what that did for reddit.

But anyway, some people have started tagging him #troll, though then someone went way too far and mk and insomniasexx (rightfully) had a sad.

user-inactivated  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

(standing up in the corner of the room) For the sake of demographic data, I am of the unprivileged ilk.

arguewithatree  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I can take it. He can't mute me on my own posts.

tla  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

It's not you I'm worried about.

tla  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

What's worse is that until recently, I could have him muted but still see his godawful bullshit just by wanting to see what is in the tags. I'm so glad that got fixed.

humanodon  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

We've used the bar analogy a lot and when I stop and think about it, I've always left my favorite bars after a while because the vibe changes as new regulars populate the place. I feel like if there were a few such places on the internet where I could go and bump into familiar usernames, I'd feel less annoyed by influxes.

I don't think that any of us wants to feel that we have to maintain anything, especially for something we're doing in our free time. For me, over the past few influxes hubski has started to feel more like a chore.

_refugee_  ·  1854 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Hey man. It's good to see you chime in here. I just wanted to say that I know how you feel. I am struggling with "new Hubski" more and more each time as well.

user-inactivated  ·  1856 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Any kind of cullture has to be maintained though.

humanodon  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

For it to continue. In real life this is done through things like tradition, common history, food, language and family. Other than, "welcome to hubski! did you check the primer page?" and "lurk moar!" what can we do? Take everyone by the hand and show them how we've been doing things?

Sounds exhausting to me, but cheers to anyone who has been trying to maintain the site culture.

user-inactivated  ·  1855 days ago  ·  link  ·  

Keep participating. Welcome people who are doing it right. Give the cold shoulder to people who are doing it wrong. Don't feed the trolls. Eventually some people decide this isn't the community for them, some decide this is the community for them, and the trolls realize they're foaming at mouth in an empty room. It's a fragile thing and stops working if an overwhelming number of people want to come recreate reddit, but I don't think we're anywhere near that point.

rinx  ·  1853 days ago  ·  link  ·  

They could turn it into an invite only site. People can leave their email address then be waitlisted for a week or two before they join. Would enforce lurking and they could use it to throttle new users.