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comment by theadvancedapes
theadvancedapes  ·  3557 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Neal Stephenson against Dystopia

We had a science fiction panel at the latest World Future Society and discussed Neal Stephenson's comments at length. I personally believe that dystopia and utopia both have a functional role in the genre. Utopia (done well) gives us something to strive for and actively work to achieve and dystopia (done well) teaches us what to avoid and actively work to prevent. But overall I agree with the notion that there is not enough imaginative optimistic science fiction, and that this is a problem. So maybe science fiction needs to go back to its first roots. The first works of science fiction were mostly works about how human beings could reach the stars (i.e., Somnium - 1608) and generate infinite possibility (i.e., The New Atlantis - 1624).





b_b  ·  3556 days ago  ·  link  ·  

The one thing that's always avoided in these discussions is that Utopia isn't a beautiful paradise where everyone lives in harmony. Utopia is a Spartan environment where everyone works hard, and is given their lot to survive. Money is not an object and is not desired, because each has what they need--not what they desire. Desire is lost. Utopia is a Stalinist dreamscape, where property doesn't exist, everything is warehoused, and slavery is a feature of everyday life. I don't know how More's Utopia ever became as desirable as Eden, but obviously whoever made this leap had never read even a cursory synopsis of it. I guess my point is that dystopia needn't be a word, because Utopia resembles it remarkably.

theadvancedapes  ·  3556 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think that is an important point. I don't personally believe utopia is a phenomenon that can exist for humans in reality. What I mean by "utopia" having function in the genre of science fiction, is simply that optimistic and imaginative narratives of the future can literally be used as tools to increase the probability of human social/technological progress.

kleinbl00  ·  3557 days ago  ·  link  ·  

I think reaching back to Somnium and The New Atlantis as examples of early science fiction is kind of like pointing at Bosch as an early example of Surrealism - yeah, it fits the definition but it exists in a bubble, divorced from the rest of the movement without influence for or by the rest of the body of work.

Can't remember who it was, but someone (Bruce Stirling?) pointed out that the important fact to consider about Cyberpunk in general and William Gibson in particular was that it was the first science fiction since WWII that didn't take place in either the incredibly distant future or after a nuclear apocalypse had wiped out everything else. In other words, Neuromancer was the first book to imagine a future with Russians that were not radioactive. seen through that lens, dystopian works are almost heartening in that they don't predict the wholesale slaughter of humanity in order to set the tableau.

And hey - they're generally only dystopian for the protagonists. Most dystopias have some sort of ruling class that oppresses Our Heroes for whom shit is actually pretty sparkly. My favorite Hanna Barbera conspiracy theory is that the Flintstones are the Morlocks of the future, toiling on the ground and living like cavemen to provide for the Eloi in the clouds, the Jetsons...

theadvancedapes  ·  3556 days ago  ·  link  ·  

    I think reaching back to Somnium and The New Atlantis as examples of early science fiction is kind of like pointing at Bosch as an early example of Surrealism - yeah, it fits the definition but it exists in a bubble, divorced from the rest of the movement without influence for or by the rest of the body of work.

Fair enough. What I was meaning to convey is that those early works are examples of science fiction writers thinking about phenomena that got others to think outside of the box (in their respective time period). This is exactly what engineers are asking of science fiction writers today.

OftenBen  ·  3557 days ago  ·  link  ·  

And dystopias function should be to scare people into working towards that better future. But lately (And this is probably just late night, should be doing something else depression talking) it seems like a not bad blueprint for the future.

Example, Elysium, for all it's problems, encompassed the modern health care debate (and trends) very well. Those who can afford it can survive damn near anything, but many people just can't afford it.