Before I begin, I'm going to shout out to a few people that have been active on the past few gun threads, in case this is something that'll interest them.
yellowoftops hyperflare tla War
Also, if someone could do me the favor of sending a message to j4d3 for me and invite him over here, I'd much appreciate it. He doesn't want to talk to me, as he feels we're in disagreement, but since this issue seems to be important to him, I want him to know that he's more than welcome to participate.
So, long story short, in the thread about the Louisana Theater Shootings, hyperflare asked me . . .
This is a very loaded question, one that has been baking my noodle all day since he asked it. As much as we all would like it to be, guns are not a black and white issue here in America. They are something that is a big part of our culture, from our lifestyles, to our entertainment, to our national history. Gun control is something that I've been talking about with people on the internet for almost fifteen years now. While I confess that there are people better equipped to talk about the issue, from both sides, in legal terms as well as analytical terms, I still like jumping in on the conversation from time to time. So here I am, again. I would like to preface all of this by saying that I do believe gun ownership is something that should be protected. I do also believe though that we do need some better gun laws.
I'll also confess right now that I've been up since three o'clock in the morning, just got home from a 11 hour shift, am getting my drink on, and I'm a horrible writer. So this might be a bunch of jumbled up rantings. I apologize in advance. I did scratch out an outline though, so I do got that going for me! So, on to guns.
The best place to start out would be our cultural history as a whole. While we have made a lot of cultural shifts in the last half century, a lot of things remain unchanged for a lot of people. Traditionally speaking, we're a nation that values individualism above the social whole. We celebrate not only our ability, but our believed right to do what we want, when we want. We believe that we are morally capable of owning up to the consequences of our actions, be them good or bad. Our mistakes are ours to make and the burdens are ours to deal with, alone. Of course, there's a flip side to this. We also believe that our successes are also our own. Even when we know, deep down inside, that outside roles play a factor in our lives, we often choose not to admit it. This is a mentality that was brought about from the days of colonialism and frontiersmen. For the most part, even when you're with a community of other people, it was us against the world. We didn't have society to fall back on.
It's with this ideology in mind that if we set ourselves to wanting something, we feel like we deserve it and this sense of entitlement extends to guns. When we see tragedies like what happened in Louisiana this week, we are more than willing to acknowledge that it's a horrible thing to have happen. However, gun owners will be quick to point out that it's the criminals and the delinquents that screwed up. Just because they're a mess, and guns were involved, it doesn't mean every law abiding gun owner should be punished. As crazy as it sounds, I agree with that sentiment.
I would like to preface the next few paragraphs by saying that I sound like a paranoid nut. I just want to say that I'm not that paranoid. However, many people, from liberals to conservatives but especially conservative gun owners, have these fears to a certain degree. They're real fears and they're something that I feel deserves honest attention, because there is some truth behind them.
To go with that sense of individualism that's culturally ingrained, we also have a culturally ingrained distrust of authority. I could go on forever about this. To make a long story short though, people originally came to North America from Europe to escape religious persecution. They were religious minorities and the established religious majority was making lives difficult for them. Not long thereafter, we won our independence from Britain, a country that we saw as overbearing, unfair, and unnecessary. If we fast forward to more recent years, we have found that our distrust for authority still thrives and is actually well founded. You had the counter culture movements in the '60s, '70s, and '80s, with such groups as hippies and punks. There was The Civil Rights Movement, The Black Panthers, on and on and on. We had McCarthyism and the Red Scare. Going back to the early 20th century we had union busters. Today, we still find our distrust in authority well founded. If you have been on the “site that shall not be mentioned” in the past year, you'll have run across anti-cop thread after anti-cop thread. It's just not cops though. We have a fear of the government as a whole. You have the Patriot Act, the NSA and the privacy of every American citizen at risk, there's The War on Drugs and the problems it brings like Civil Asset Forfeiture and for profit prisons. Speaking of for corporations and our government getting too cozy, you also have issues like the Bank Bailouts and Fracking. Things no self respecting citizen wanted, yet bitter pills that local, state, and federal governments insist we swallow. People fear that every step in gun legislation is one more step of the government trying to step too far, and as yellowoftops has pointed out in a previous thread, there sadly is a precedent that makes such fears rational.
Distrust of media taken out for brevity, also I feel it gets a little too crazy there.
Dear Lord, forgive me. I'm still rambling on and I'm no where near finished. For those of you that are still sticking around, I thank you for your patience. Also, I want to apologize. I feel like I've focused on the negative way too long though. Onto the Positive! Why do I, as an individual, think we should be allowed to own guns? Well, for a lot of reasons actually.
Guns are many things to many people. For a lot of people, they love guns for the idea of guns. They're everywhere after all. They're in our movies, our video games, our comic books. They're idolized both idolized and fetishized, making them objects of desire. They convey a sense of power, security, and manliness. Just like the media should be blamed for drumming up controversy surrounding guns, they should also be blamed for marketing them. It's honestly not all bad though. The majority of gun owners don't own them completely out of a sense of desire or the need for a power trip, though sometimes they do go hand in hand. They're owned for a whole host of reasons. For some, guns are an art form. They're a sense of engineering marvel, a sense of curiosity. Whether they're the most modern fire arm, or an antique from a war long ago, they bring about a sense of wonder and excitement in ownership, much like cars, video game systems, or computers for certain people. For some people, they're a source of entertainment. Though the numbers have been dwindling over the years, both hunting and sport shooting are a past time enjoyed by many gun owners. Some people would be just as likely to spend an afternoon at a gun range as they would a bowling alley or public pool. For a lot of people though, guns are a necessity. Ranchers and farmers both need guns to protect their livestock and protect their property. When you live out in the middle of nowhere, you can't trust the Sheriffs to come help you out at the first sign of trouble. You're on your own. As crazy as it sounds though, you don't need to be in the middle of nowhere to be on your own. Sometimes, even in the city, your gun is your first best bet. It's this very concept of self defense though, that draws a lot of people to defend gun ownership. Many gun owners I know, own guns because they see it as an expression of their rights as a human being to defend themselves as they see fit. To them, a fist, knife, baseball bat, or gun makes little difference. It's a hard thing to argue against. One thing that's hard to argue against though, is that here in the states, the majority of gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens. Despite what the news might want you to think, we're not all going around shooting each other day and night.
I personally think that owning a gun solely for the sake of self defense is a two edge sword. To keep this post from becoming a novel, I'll keep my thoughts on the matter brief. Guns aren't necessarily the best tool for self defense. More often than not, proper preventative measures, situational awareness, and deescalation skills will do you more good than any gun ever could. When you couple that with the fact that people under pressure are prone to making mistakes and that even if you clearly acted in self defense any confrontation will bring about legal complications, I don't think guns are the ultimate answer to protecting yourself. However, I do think they're a component worth considering.
If I were to get down to the crux of the issue though, and why I don't think guns should be banned in America, I'll say this. We already have a lot of laws saying what you can and can't do with a gun, who can and can't own a gun, and on and on and on. Guns are very much regulated, despite what people might say. I think tightening up the laws here and there, like closing both the individual sale and the gun show loopholes, could be a big step in the right direction. Furthermore, I think the cat is pretty much out of the bag. There are so many guns out there in the wild here in The States, that not only would banning them be political suicide for whoever proposes it, but actually getting them all off the streets would be damn near impossible, and while it's a cliché, I think the statement that “When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns,” has a ring of truth to it. To be honest though, while I think guns factor into the problem, I think it's dishonest to say that they're the problem in and of itself. I programs that treat problems from poverty and job loss, to drug dependency, to mental health would not only do wonders to curb gun violence, but to curb all sorts of social problems. I really feel that we owe it to ourselves, both as a society, as well as decent human beings, to stop focusing on the objects involved and start focusing on the people involved. I have more to say, but this has gotten way too long so I want to end on that.
God bless you all. I'll check in later.
Hi,
Sometimes when someone writes a really long thing (even sometimes when I do) I like to try and go through the post and pick out the major points, to see if I understand the piece itself and also to boil it down to its bones for a little bit. Can you tell me if you feel I've accurately captured the gist of your post? Is there anything I missed or you would like to add?
I want to know if I am capturing your thoughts accurately (but in very brief form).
And Why
( A compression of what I think rd95 is going for)
A Preface: Guns, An Interesting Conversation
It's Good To Hear The Nuance of Others' Opinions
(I Talk About Them A Lot!)
I am for the right to own guns!
-> Backstory: We have a cultural history that promotes guns and gun ownership
-We value individualism
-We feel entitled to liberty; to make our own choices
-Like yin and yang, liberty and responsibility travel together
-Law abiding gun owners shouldn't be punished for the nuts who go on shooting sprees
->Gun Owners and their Fears
-Distrust of authority that leads to believe we should have guns
-Gov't
-Cops
-NSA etc
B Why Have Guns?
-the idea
-convey a sense of power, security, and manliness
-Art form
-Entertainment
-Protection – livestock, property, as well as self
C Own A Gun For Self Defense?
-double edged sword
-guns aren't necesarry for self defense
-however, they are a weapon
D Why Not Ban Guns?
-already regulated
-cat is out of the bag
-couldn't get guns off streets
Conclusion/Final Thought: Stop Focusing on Guns. Focus on Issues.