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kleinbl00  ·  347 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: June 12, 2016 Orlando Nightclub Shooting, discussionx 3

So did you change their mind?

Did they change yours?

Did you learn anything?

Did they?

Did you come up with a solution?

Did they convince you their way forward was better?

Or did you all just sit around, rending your shirts, politicizing the fuck out of the scantest information to prop your opinions up with someone else's blood?

I'm a fuckin' idiot. I grew up drinking lead. I shoulda been dead of nuclear war by 1986, AIDS by 1989, the greenhouse effect by 2000 and fuckin' Monsanto or some shit by 2012 but I'm still here, you're still here, we're all still here and evil walks the earth, forever and ever amen.

We got people here "remembering" fuckin' Roseburg. I got mayonnaise older than that shooting. Know what I remember? San Ysidro. Crazy fuckers have long been walking into restaurants and killing people.

We got people here insisting it was a hate crime and therefore somehow worse. Right. Because every gathering of small children is an act of bravery since Sandy Hook, right? Every act of sleeping in a sorority an act of bravery since Santa Barbara (or hey - how 'bout since fuckin' Richard Speck?) And every summer camp an act of bravery since Breivik.

And of course, it's "radical islam." Hey, know what? If the FBI investigates you twice and doesn't pull the trigger, that means you're a citizen. "Oh, by the way, up with ISIS! allahu akbar! TTYL!" So which personal liberties shall we give up this time so you can feel more safe at night? Who shall we profile?

Clearly, it's those evil assault rifles. Except Dunblane was handguns. Osaka was a kitchen knife. Oklahoma City was fertilizer and diesel. I'm sure the NRA is to blame for this if we only triangulate our self-righteousness properly.

LOOK AT ME I HAVE A POINT AND NOW IT'S GOT BLOOD ON IT. LISTEN TO ME! LISTEN TO ME! LISTEN TO ME!

This is a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. That lets a lot of evil through. Always has, always will. What do these post-mortems always look like? "Oh, we missed the signs." "Oh, fingers pointed at agency X for dropping the ball." "Oh, those evil muslims." "Oh, those evil politicians." "Oh, my guy is better than your guy." "Oh, my path is of righteousness and thou art on the road to hell." MILLIONS of muslims woke up yesterday morning and didn't drive to a gay bar to shoot it up. MILLIONS of gun owners did not plot to overthrow America. Go for a walk in your neighborhood. You will find no one that is any closer to killing you all today than they were yesterday.

Should guns be harder to get? In my opinion, hell yeah. Would it have made a difference here? Hell no. How long were Harris and Klebold scheming to shoot up Columbine? Well, they'd been in and out of juvie for six months. They made a video - for school - in which they pantomimed killing their classmates. Give a vaguely resourceful psycho a six-month head start and he doesn't need guns.

In this modern world, with these modern liberties, we are dependent on the social compact to preserve our fundamental freedom. I like social compacts that are peer-oriented. I dislike top-down autocracies. Has the TSA made you safer? How 'bout PRISM?

Someone out there doesn't like your face. They don't like your lifestyle, your god, your diet, your shoes. If they're a vaguely normal human, they keep it to themselves. If they're mildly unhinged, they take to the internet. If they are bleeding asymptote crazy they might just saddle up and go practice suicide by cop. This? This is no bueno.

But you know what?

I'm sorry that the crazies scare you. I Grew up with this shit and you people scare me more. You live in a country that loves Tarantino, loves Deadpool, loves Dirty Harry and fucking adores guns and evil will pluck that like grapes from a vine. So keep celebrating Scorsese out of one side of your mouth and decrying Travis Bickle out of the other - that's the dichotomy of America and fuckin' A, I'm used to it. You're used to it. Culturally, this is the choice we've made.

But quit pretending that shit would be different if only your politics dominated. You may be right, you may be wrong, you may be wise you may be crazy but dipping your arguments in someone else's blood doesn't make you right, it makes you ghoulish.

_refugee_  ·  470 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: Free speech is exhaustingx 2

You don't have to tolerate hate speech. You can argue against it or you can go somewhere it can no longer reach you.

You aren't required to engage with speech of any form, hate or otherwise.

OP may feel he has a moral or personal obligation to speak up against certain kinds of hate speech. Kudos to OP, he is doing a valuable service. However, that's his choice and it's not mandated by any entity and he can opt out at any time.

You aren't required to enter a debate with hate speech. You aren't required to accept hate speech. You aren't required to believe it.

Hate speech is protected because it is speech, and because defining sub-types of speech into categories like "hate speech" cannot in any way be imagined as objective. And if we start only protecting subjective sub-categories of speech we are in for a much bigger world of trouble than having to hear the college religious nut go off about abortions again.

War - this is honestly more directly aimed at you, tbh.

You don't have to engage in free speech or provide responses to hate speech. Some would say that not reacting, that ignoring hate speech, denying it an audience, is the best thing that you can do.

I don't agree. I think it is vital to speak up against perceived wrongs; we all have our own set, but for instance, say something blatantly racist or sexist in my eyesight and I'm going to call you out on it.

Except you're totally right. It's exhausting. Sometimes you want to just have a conversation. Sometimes you just want to vent about your day. Sometimes you want to just feel calm, not incited to anger, not riled up. Sometimes you want to just walk away. The more standing up against hate speech you do the more exhausted you get.

But you are standing up because you choose to stand up because you see an injustice and refuse to let it stand. To me that is real character. It is a person with no skin on the line other than being a witness who says, "You know what? No. I will not be a witness to this, I will not let this stand." You are standing up because you know it sucks but someone has to do it, you know someone has to do it, and you aren't going to sit on your ass looking around for "someone." You'd sit on your ass forever if you did that.

Having character, having things that you as a person stand for, and then backing those morals and beliefs up with frequent refusals to tolerate those who propagate ideas and lifestyles which are completely counter to those morals? That is exhausting. Especially if you are a decent person who sees nuance in things and doesn't want to fight people all the time. Who wants to like people, give them the benefit of the doubt, who doesn't want to be seen as aggressive or antagonistic or "that fucking annoying fucker, bringing up race arguments again." (I imagine the Westboro Baptists do not find themselves particularly exhausted at the end of the day; I imagine they cackle with glee, actually.)

It is exhausting to stand up for what you believe in. But the only reason you are able to do so is because of free speech.

We cannot limit speech based on our feelings about the content because what will end up happening is that others will limit our speech because of our feelings and our content. We can only choose whether or not to tolerate it; to serve as an audience; to speak up, debate, or challenge it.

There are users here who have left because they got tired of standing up. More's the pity: no one has stepped in to fill their shoes. And that's what happens when voices of dissent get beaten down into silence, they stepped all over, forced to repeat themselves and their arguments again and again, forced to reduce their existence to constantly arguing with different bigots over the same shit every day because guess what? There will always be more bigots. There will always be more innocent ignoramuses.

It fuckin' sucks.

All I can say is shoulder on and be the voice of dissent and keep being it. Because the voices of dissent are vital, and few, and necessary.

rd95  ·  540 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: How poor people stay poorx 2

    I am interested in seeing if anyone else has been through this and has anything to add to the article.

I had a rant. It rambled on and was awful and negative. I deleted it. I'll just say this. The hunger sucked. The shame sucked. The fear sucked.

Don't laugh at the guy who comes knocking on your door three days before rent is due trying to sell you his X-Box, because that could easily be you, giving up pieces of your life just to have a roof over your head.

Find a local food pantry. Give to them. Not just now, but six months down the road too, when the word "charity" isn't on the tip of everyone's tongues.

I would definitely recommend having a first "real job." There are things she can learn at a real job that will prepare her for whatever she wants to do next. I probably would be twice as good if I had worked two different jobs, and three times as good if I had worked three. Every experience gives you more knowledge, which then guides you as you make decisions about how you want to act, what you want to be, how you want to be seen, etc. It will also teach her about about how people write emails, what makes a good manager vs a bad one, what makes a good co-worker vs a bad one, how annoying a rambling 2-hour conference call is, what makes a good client vs a bad one, etc.

There are also the itty-bitty things that I didn't even realize were things. I hired two college kids to help me part time at my old job and after their first "here's the design I did" email, I realized I had to start with the basics. I didn't even realize my first manager had taught me these things, but he had -- Here is how you start an email. Here is what the email contains. Here is what your signature should look like. No, never use your personal email address for work-related business. Here is how to determine what order email addresses go in. Here is how to CC, when to BCC, how badly BCCing can go. When to call vs email, how to set up a conference call, man the list goes on and on.

It will also give her the chance to potentially be in the other person's shoes in the future. One thing I've learned since managing my own people is that managers have a thousand different things in their head, only one is your situation. Just tell me what I absolutely need to know and move on. I really don't care why something is happening...or how it happened...or whatever. I'm sure some of the emails I wrote about a bug or something would make me cringe today.

I would also tell your niece to opt for an environment that will teach her the most and give her the most opportunities to learn, rather than just looking at the money or company-name power. You obviously have to weigh the pros and cons, but a smaller company where you are wearing multiple hats will give you a lot more opportunities to step up to the plate, interact with other departments, interact with high level management, and be that much more well-rounded. There are benefits to working in a very organized company and learning a strict process, but the reality is, you will learn more about the process and internal workings of the company than you will new skills.

I think one of the most valuable things about my old job was literally where I happened to sit. I sat upstairs with the engineers because I was too young to get a real office and the cubes were full. However, I worked mostly with the marketing department and I also reported directly to the president or CEO for projects for clients or high-level internal projects. This gave me a very unique perspective on both sides of the fence. I learned the information that marketers wanted to know as well as the engineers. A lot of times I acted as "translator"/ "e-mail rewriter" between the two departments because I could speak both languages. Later, I was able to streamline some items in our process that were pissing off the engineers and the marketers, but know one knew (1) that it was really an issue worth fixing or (2) that they both felt the same hatred for it.

Okay - last thing. Jobs also give you a network of people. Companies with high turnover rates are more valuable to you (but more dangerous) because the people you meet and make friends with today will be at a different company next year and can provide you with an in or a helping hand when you need it. You never know when the guy sitting at the cubicle next to you, that annoying sales rep, the IT guys* wife, or whoever can help you get to where you want to be. Your reputation is gold in certain industries so don't talk shit, never say no, and listen more than you talk. Save for maybe one or two truly horrid people, I would move mountains if any of my old co-workers needed assistance with anything. I even liked one of the sale's reps stupid facebook page the other day!

* Always make best friends with the IT guy / gal / team. Bring them cookies and stop in to talk about whatever they are into. (1) The lock on their door and the fact that they have more free-time than they would like anyone to know means they're room is a great place to hide when you just can't take it anymore, (2) They usually have a secret room which is glorious for hangover naps and (3) they will answer your call gladly when you need them and (4) they are always the first to know everything and they usually know all the company's dirty little secrets - this comes in handy when you need advise or can't figure something / someone out.

kleinbl00  ·  637 days ago  ·  link  ·    ·  parent  ·  post: The challange of making friends as an adult

Strap in, 'cuz I unshipped the Truth Cannon.

______________________________________________________________________________

The article is a fumbling assemblage of anecdotes attempting to blast in the general direction of the truth via shotgun. To wit:

    In your 30s and 40s, plenty of new people enter your life, through work, children’s play dates and, of course, Facebook. But actual close friends — the kind you make in college, the kind you call in a crisis — those are in shorter supply.

Friends are people you are willing to obligate. We're more polite as we grow older and less needy of others' help. As such, we're less likely to obligate someone to help us - "I feel like shit, come over and cheer me up" - "I took a pounding in the market, come grab a beer with me" and thus less likely to form those "OMG he broke up with me" bonds. Doesn't mean the process isn't exactly the same with the exact same outcome.

    That thought struck Lisa Degliantoni, an educational fund-raising executive in Chicago, a few months ago when she was planning her 39th birthday party. After a move from New York to Evanston, Ill., she realized that she had 857 Facebook friends and 509 Twitter followers, but still did not know if she could fill her party’s invitation list. “I did an inventory of the phases of my life where I’ve managed to make the most friends, and it was definitely high school and my first job,” she said.

Holy shit - you mean she moved a thousand miles from home and had trouble finding in-the-flesh people to congregate with? COLOR ME SHOCKED!

    After a divorce in his 40s, Robert Glover, a psychotherapist in Bellevue, Wash., realized that his roster of friends had quietly atrophied for years as he focused on career and family.

"Man who was a shitty friend finds himself friendless"

    As external conditions change, it becomes tougher to meet the three conditions that sociologists since the 1950s have considered crucial to making close friends: proximity; repeated, unplanned interactions; and a setting that encourages people to let their guard down and confide in each other, said Rebecca G. Adams, a professor of sociology and gerontology at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro.

Keep your eye on this sentence. The author is going to pretend she didn't write it when she brings up children in a few paragraphs.

    Differences in professional status and income also complicate matters. “It really does get weird when your friends are making tons more than you, or tons less,” said Adriane Duckworth, a former marketing executive now working as an artist in Hamilton, Ontario. She recently welcomed a promising new couple into her circle of friends, but they quickly turned people off with their obsession with money.

AND NOW YOU KNOW WHY COUNTRY CLUBS EXIST

    “At our wedding, other friends of ours who were seated with them actually complained to us afterward about the couple who was asking everyone how much money they made,” said Ms. Duckworth, 32. “People who made less felt uncomfortable discussing it, and people who made the same or more just felt it was weird to talk about it so nonchalantly.”

This just in: people who are boors at weddings make terrible friends

    ADDING children to the mix muddles things further. Suddenly, you are surrounded by a new circle of parent friends — but the emotional ties can be tenuous at best, as the comedian Louis C. K. related in one stand-up routine: “I spend whole days with people, I’m like, I never would have hung out with you, I didn’t choose you. Our children chose each other. Based on no criteria, by the way. They’re the same size.”

Hmmm - this sounds familiar - I'm almost sure that "a new circle of parent friends" is "proximity; repeated, unplanned interactions; and a setting that encourages people to let their guard down and confide in each other." So how, exactly, do parent groups make it harder to make friends?

    Caryl Lyons, an event planner in Danville, Calif., and her husband found a budding friendship with a parent-friend couple hit a roadblock when their young sons, who had been close friends, drifted apart. When the families planned a barbecue together, her son would say, “Can I have my other friends over?” said Ms. Lyons, 44.

"Only if you also invite their parents!"

    External factors are not the only hurdle. After 30, people often experience internal shifts in how they approach friendship.

FOR A SELECT GROUP OF PEOPLE YOU DON'T WANT TO BE FRIENDS WITH

    Thayer Prime, a 32-year-old strategy consultant who lives in London, has even developed a playful 100-point scale (100 being “best friend forever”). In her mind, she starts to dock new friend candidates as they begin to display annoying or disloyal behavior. Nine times out of 10, she said, her new friends end up from 30 to 60, or little more than an acquaintance.

You think this bitch has a 100-point furniture rating scale? Or a 100-point chinese takeout-rating scale? No, she just sits there silently judging everyone she hangs out with and wonders why they let her down.

    “My ideas of friendship were built by ‘The Godfather’ and ‘Diner,’ ” he said. “Your friends were your brothers, and anything but total loyalty at all costs meant excommunication. As you get older, that model becomes unrealistic.”

How many friends you think this guy had as a kid? 'cuz either he's remembering things a lot more rigidly or the fucker has always been forever alone.

    Some, like Ms. Degliantoni, the fund-raising executive, simply downsize their expectations. “I take an extremely efficient approach and seek out like-minded folks to fill very specific needs,” she said of her current strategy. “I have a cocktail friend and a book friend and a parenting friend and several basketball friends and a neighbor friend and a workout friend.”

Says the chick with "857 Facebook friends and 509 Twitter followers" who "did not know if she could fill her party’s invitation list".

    After a move to New York in his 30s, Dave Cervini, a radio station executive, was so lonely that he would walk his cat in Central Park, hoping to stoke conversations.

After imitating a psychopath, Dave Cervini discovered that if he conducted his friendship quests entirely over the Internet he no longer had to leave his associations up to organic events.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now that the NYT's merry band of psychopaths is out of the way, here's the truth of the matter:

When you're over-scheduled and under-accepting of others, you will find that you have a hard time maintaining relationships.

Los Angeles is the worst for this. The place has a remarkable amount of impedance for lack of a better term - it's just a stone-cold pain in the ass to get out and do something. Last Saturday I headed over to a co-worker's place for a couple hours. It was an eight mile drive. I was there for an hour and a half. That cooked off my afternoon from 11am until 4:30pm. If you do not make a concerted effort to see someone with regularity, you will cease to see them, despite the fact that you get along gangbusters. Worse, both sides have to be committed. If one of you calls up and says "let's go to breakfast!" the other of you needs to be willing to say "I am willing to forego eating for the next two hours and punch a 5-hour hole in my day to hang out with you for an hour and a half." It doesn't take a genius to observe that it ain't much like dorm life.

If you start going "is this person really worth 5 hours of my time" then you're already making an economic assessment and you will let that person drop from your life sooner or later. If you had fun with them last time, though, you'll have fun with them next time, and every time you revisit those social connections you reinforce them.

Two tuesdays ago I was supposed to have lunch with a buddy. It didn't work out. He suggested coffee or beer. I told him to come over for dinner and to bring his wife. Then another friend called up and wanted to know what I was up to. I told him to bring his girlfriend. So at 11am I'd already committed to spending my afternoon cooking for six people. It cost me $70 to hang out with friends on a Tuesday. And it was absolutely, positively 100% worth it, even if I stopped talking to one of them for a week two days later (deadlines that were not mentioned). That's a reinforcement of the value of friendship and you know what? I DON'T CARE that neither of them would put together a tuesday evening dinner because it isn't about reciprocity, it's about friendship. Me? I like to entertain. Thus I have a house that's great for entertaining and will throw down with the barbecue and margaritas on a moment's notice. Thus, I have a lot of friends. Thus, I think this article is utter hogwash; a ham-handed excuse for people with guarded hearts to feel better about the fact that they have no one to hang out with on weekends.

Know what I did yesterday? I braved an hour of white-lining the 405 at rush hour in 103 degree weather so I could get to work 3 hours early so I could sit outside on Ventura blvd in that same weather while two friends showed up 45 minutes late. Know why they wanted to get together? They have a friend who's moving to Seattle and they thought he should know a person or two and I'm the only person they know in Seattle (even if I'm not there yet). And it was so fucking hot it gave me a headache and I ended up sitting at a pretentious "gastropub" eating a $5 pretzel, drinking an $8 lager and reading a kindle while they failed to show up on time and I'd do it again today if they asked.

Because I like having friends.

"Hey Fove, I hear things aren't going so well this time around. That's okay man, things have been interesting at times, I know. You probably don't want to hear me prattle on either; but there's a few things you need to hear.

I'm not going to pretend I know what your life is like. I really don't. You're in a different place to me and I respect that; I won't tell you to 'get over it' or 'just be a man and shut it out'. I tried that once and it broke me, so telling you to try it would be a bit thick. How's Mum? She good? Her and Dad still going on their wee dates every month? That's good, that's really good to hear. Have you talked to them recently though? You know how they got me through my shitty times. Mum with her "fix the problem at all costs and help my child" approach and Dad with his much more subtle "observe, listen, acknowledge, assist" method. They're bright people, that's why you are too. Yeah yeah Dad left school at 14, he's still clever as fuck. And he spent time in a mental institute remember. You know what I take from that? Mum stayed with him through it all.

No, no, I'm not saying you need to find a woman like Mum. I mean like... If that's the length she's willing to go to for the man she married, what lengths do you think she would go to for the man she helped create? She lives for you, and for your brother and sister. I know her approach is about as subtle as a sledgehammer but when your life is on the line she's the person you call for. And there is no shame in that. You don't fuck with a mumma bear and her cubs, any egg can tell you that.

Work huh? Yeah studying Psychology didn't really wind up where you wanted eh. Me neither man, it's a little funny huh? All that time for a $42,000 piece of paper saying you can stick at something. But! But... You're still working in the telco? Not where you want to be? That's cool man. I'm glad you don't want to be there. That tells me you still feel something. Where do you want to be??? That's cool if you don't know; you're in luck. You happen to be bright/talented/charismatic enough to wander to another country and land a job there. You might hate it there too, to be honest. But you did something different. You tried something and found you didn't want to be their either. That's good! Where too next? Back home, that's an idea.

No, again, no shame in coming home. You're coming back to your roots. To where your friends and family are. Your whanau. They're gonna be sooooo stoaked you're back. You know what you should do when you get back? Do some art yo, channel those feelings into the canvas like you used too. Remember how you'd paint that weird, dark shit and never really recall what led you to that? - Imagine what you'll make now!

Oh and get back into rugby. Your injuries are gone. And yes, so is that contract, but I'm going to be honest with you, I never would have made it as a professional sportsman - and given we're the same flesh, blood and bundle of nerves I think you know the same. Luck had it's way with you but to be honest, we'd have concussions and broken bones with no back up plan when all was said and done. I know it's hard not to focus on what could have been, but picture that "could have been" as a Hospital bill and faded memories.

Think of mum's grey hair and smiling face. Dad's shiny head (remember when he tried a ponytail out?! Holy shit....). Think of Bryn, and Slink, FatAids and Lewis, Bomber and Zac. All the Hardmen too! They're all here. Beers ready, it won't be your shout for another three jugs, I promise.

You got this man, you're equipped to handle everything and you have the support systems to catch you if you ever fail. And in a years time I promise you things will have colour again.

Takina te hoe kia Rite my friend, I'll see you on the 5."

I think that's how my internal conversation would go with me. Thought experiments are challenging!