Honestly my paragraph at the end was merely designed to sum up the link above rather than act as a conclusion, I don't _think_ it added anything that would call it an argument. What I was hoping you'd go into was to do with the first three quote portions by themselves where I haven't put any analysis. Which is slightly too much to infer from what I said, so I apologise and I'll put up some extra here.

To issue in short is that responsibility isn't the only thing up for grabs; there's a lot of other factors considered by the other quotes that are pretty straight forward and mostly that's culpability. Responsibility takes place after it's been established there was a crime taking place and to say the victim was partially responsible is to lessen the defendant's sentence.

I figured that I could give up the responsibility without losing any force against b_b's claim that there isn't anyone who thinks drunkenness is an excuse in some degree for rape. I'm too happy to give up points like that when I think it can still be won because zero-sum games etc are usually long arguments over semantics that I don't care for. You've brought it up though and given some thought to it so I will tackle that by itself because otherwise it's a bit rude to go "I didn't explain myself very well and so let's dismiss your argument in favour of what I hoped you inferred."

Mostly the other cases discuss whether a crime took place. In the first case the female witness is described as drunk and is less credible as a witness.

This case is not discussing responsibility - it does not suggest because she has been drinking she was increasingly her likelihood of being raped - it is describing how it is less believable she was raped because she was drinking. This is claiming that the act didn't actually take place rather than a lessening of responsibility, currently UK law has no events that lessen punishment for rape, only a rather long list of things that can increase it. To claim that a rape did not take place because of the witness being drunk is to excuse it happening entirely.

The second one only notes that this is not merely individuals who find this result but mock juries. This raises practical concerns about rape trials rather than just societal concerns about how we view rape and drinking. That's a stretch for someone to read into what I said, so it's best off to read this as being introduced now.

The third is Finch/Munro. No one worth listening to is going to claim the girl was more responsible for the rape if she did not struggle, their claim will be that the act was consensual because someone who is not consenting ought to struggle. I think the issue with that is pretty blinding but again it is excusing that a crime took place because of the actions of the victim under the influence of alcohol.

So to discuss zero sum games.

Partially innocent is an interesting term. I was under the impression what usually happened under cases of limited responsibility was that they were still pronounced guilty and then their sentencing was adjusted to consider their diminished responsibility for the action. Murder and manslaughter is the common example where if you are not of sound mind, acted with loss of control or even in a suicide pact you are deemed to have diminished responsibility but are still guilty. Innocent and guilty are pretty binary.

So in your case if the victim made bad choices she lessens the responsibility of the man acting upon her. I don't think anything I've said has linked the two - I think it's more in tune with your second category at any rate.

So if a woman has been drinking she's held to be more responsible for the rape than if she were sober and if a man has been drinking he is less responsible for the rape than if he were sober

Case A: A woman drinking, she is more responsible for the rape. Case B: A man drinking, he is less responsible for the rape.

Where's the link? I think you might have imputed slightly more on to me than was actually there.

Responsibility as zero sum is kinda interesting though. So if I used the example of two people pushing a car off a cliff - in case A only person A pushes the car and in case B both person A and person B push the car.

In case A person A is 100% responsible and person B 0% responsible, but in case B you could see it as they are both 50% responsible for the act or they are both 100% responsible for the act as either of them acting would have been sufficient for the event?